HomeMy WebLinkAboutDRAKE CROSSING SHOPPING CENTER (FIRST NATIONAL BANK DRIVE-UP) - AMENDED FINAL PUD ..... APRIL 28, 1997 P & Z BOARD HEARING - 35-96 - DECISION - MINUTES/NOTES31
1 if you're not lucky enough to live right where these people
2 are, you do have to drive.
3 Secondly, the -- I was under the impression
4 that City Plan realizes -- just that there isn't just people
5 that ride bikes and walk in the city, okay. We do -- there
6 are people that drive cars. And I know that right now, for
7 me to access, I'm -- I've a client of First National Banks
8 when it was First Interstate Bank, and for me to -access a
9 facility now on Saturday or Sunday, I have to drive all the
10 way to their facility on John F. Kennedy, or the facility
11 downtown.
I12 And that's just increasing the amount of
13 miles that are driven, and I know there's a lot of clients
14 of the banks in that area, and to me that's going to reduce
15 miles driven, :and that's part of City Plan. And my fellow
16 neighbors in this area, please note what is being used, what
17 is in that parking lot now. It just seems almost every
18 Saturday morning that I drive up or I drive by there, it's
19 used as a truck parking lot.
20 I think having a facility that is. well
21' landscaped is going to be a lot better for my -- for my land
22 values, then having Ryder trucks parked on -the -- on that
23 corner. So anyway, I'm very much in favor of it, and I
24 thank the bank for designing such a nice facility.
25 MS. BELL: Next; please.
40
1
them right back out on to the street, or they can make a
2
right taking them back into the center and out one of the
3
other exit points, the three exit points, either the north,
i
4
south, or east exit points, two of which are on to arterial
5
roadways.
6
I would estimate in my humble judgment, 75
7
percent of them would want to bail quickly, not going
8
through the whole center and heading straight out on
9
Hampshire Road. Having experience with drive-throughs, I
I10
used to be a restaurant manager with drive-throughs. If
11
people wait longer than they anticipate waiting, they become
12
in a big hurry, and they are going to be flying out of there
13
to get going on their way if they're longer than they
14
anticipated being there. And that concerns me very much
15
because I do have small children, and as much as we teach
16
them about traffic, to stay away from it, sometimes they do
17
stray into it, so that's a major concern of mine.
18
As right up on this corner not shown in the
19
picture, is a detention pond area.. That's dry most of the
20
time, and that's where a lot of kids in the neighborhood do
21
play ball. If the ball rolls into the street, it's a great
22
concern of mine. Fred had pointed out that right now there
23
are 71 gaps to cross the street, adequate gaps, but that's
24
at today's traffic.. That does not include the increase in
25
traffic that's going to happen due to this drive -through
27
1 that it would negatively impact the neighborhood, and that
2 the facility ought to be on the interior of the shopping
3 center.
4 His memorandum was made part of the record on
5 the March loth meeting; however, tonight my primary is that
6 this development is in direct conflict with the values,
7 visions, goals, and actual policies in the new Fort Collins
8. City Plan that you recently adopted. The following are
9 direct quotes from this Plan. "New development and
10 redevelopment will be organized into a woven and compact
11 system that is conducive to pedestrian, bicycle, and public
12 transit travel.
13 Existing neighborhoods will be protected
14 against development that is incompatible with community
15 goals and needs.. Neighborhood Shopping Centers will be
16 designed as.pedestrian oriented gathering places to reflect
17 the identity and character of the surrounding residential
18 neighborhoods. The pedestrian will be given equal .
19. consideration with other modes, and will encourage walking
20 for shorter trips.
21 Neighborhood commercial centers will be
22 designed to encourage walking and will be better oriented to
23 the communities they serve." And from the community
24 commercial district portion of the plan, policy CCD-1.4,
25 quote, ."Drive -through facilities will be discouraged."
84
1 STATE OF COLORADO )
ss.
2 COUNTY OF LARIMER )
3 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
4 I, Leslie G. Arnold, do hereby state that I
5 am a Court Reporter and Notary Public within and for the
6 State of Colorado, hereby certify that the foregoing
7 hearing, taken in the matter of Drake Crossing PUD - Amended
8 Final, was held on Monday, April 28, 1997, at 300 West
9 Laporte Avenue, Colorado; that said proceedings were
10 transcribed by me from videotape to the foregoing 83 pages;
11 that said transcript is, to the best of my ability to
12 transcribe same, an accurate and complete record of the
13 proceedings so taken.
14 I further state that I am not related to,
15 employed by, nor of counsel for any of the parties or
16 attorneys herein, nor otherwise interested in the result of
17 the within action.
18 Attested to by me this 21st day of June,
19 1997.
! 20
21
22 �1 asee'.N
lie G. Arnold, Court Re orter
M N�T�4342 stbrooke Court
23 *: — _ * Fort 0llins, Colorado 80526
24 N�,:.ptIBL1�+: �a3� My commisson expires September 6, 2000
25
My cemmft" 80"
83
1
THE CLERK: Davidson?
2
MR. DAVIDSON: No.
3
THE CLERK: Colton?
4
MR. COLTON: Yes.
5
THE CLERK: Gavaldon?
6
MR. GAVALDON: Yes.
7
THE CLERK: Weitkunat?
8
i
MS. WEITKUNAT: Yes.
9
THE CLERK: .Bell?
10
MS., BELL: Yes. Motion passes 4-1, or --
1
11
5-1. How many people do we have here tonight? I think
f12
we'll take a brief recess.
13
(Matter concluded.)
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I
82
1 also. When I drive out there and look at it, I go, this
2 doesn't look so bad. I think the majority of those cars
3 come out, take that little left and get on to Drake and
4 probably won't go on the neighborhood streets. The ones
5 that do go on Hampshire, hopefully that would be serving the
6 residents of the area, but I do hear a lot of the concerns
7 and understand them, and I'm really a little bit torn like
8 Bob.
9 Again, I think it would be like the other
10 Board members have stated, reduce vehicle miles traveled in
11 the city which is good, but again could have a potential
12 negative impact on the neighborhood, so I'm not exactly sure
13 how I'm going to vote here. We will see when the roll call
14 comes.
15 MS. BELL: Are we ready to take a vote, then?
16 Steve.
17 MR. OLT: The motion for approval does
18 include the standard condition for the development agreement
19 and utility plans. I need to point out to the Board, like
20 others you heard earlier this evening, the date in that
21 development agreement condition needs to be changed from
22 June 19th,.of.1997 to July 3rd, of 1997.
23 MS. WEITKUNAT: I will agree to that.
24 MR. GAVALDON: I agree, too.
25 MS. BELL: Okay. Are we ready to vote?
81
1 MR. DAVIDSON: I got mixed feelings on this.
2 I believe architecturally, landscape, everything else, it
3 definitely is an improvement over the existing parking lot
4 and rental vehicles and everything else that used to be
5 there. I believe it will cut down on vehicle trips spent
6 going to and fro to banks. The only thing that I really
7 have a problem with is, as I remember from our last
8 discussion, this is one of the few, if not only, other than,
9 I always forget the name, of the Toddy's, where Toddy's is,
10 is the only other service center we have that has access for
11 commercial business from a residential street, and I guess
12 that's the biggest problem I have.
13 We not only have it from residential street,
14 but I think it's mighty close to Drake, and then we also
15 have a main entrance into Drake Crossing from Drake just-
16 east of that, so it's sort of becomes a little redundant. I
17 realize that one would not work well for access into this
18 bank, but I think based upon the fact that we are using a
19 residential street to access this commercial business, I
20 won't be voting in favor of this even though I think it's a
21 very good project in many other ways.
22 . MS. BELL: Any other comments? Glen, did you
23 have anything to say? Did you have something, Jerry?
24 There's no other --
25 MR. COLTON: I'm struggling with this one,
LNU
1 quite appropriate.
2 I would encourage a harmony and working
3 together to making this the best because this is a good
4 neighborhood, and I'll continue to encourage the discussion,
5 and I feel it's appropriate.
6 MS. BELL: Any other comments? Karen.
7 MS. WEITKUNAT: This is a commercial project
8 on the edge of the perimeter of a commercial area. It is
9 providing a neighborhood service to the western part of the
10 community, and I think when we start talking vehicle miles
11. traveled, I think you'll see that in the long run, it will
12 offer a reduction. I believe they tried to address the
13 pedestrian problems.
14 I have to believe in our staff, and the data
15 that they provided us, the hard data that comes from the
16 traffic impact analysis and the other studies that they
17 perform. I live across from a drive -through bank, and I
18 think that in watching it, some of what you .believe to
19. transpire does not happen, and I think that they're some
20 fears that maybe aren't warranted, based on the LDGS, the
21 Land Use, and the' points in the information within the Land
22 Development Guidance System. This is an appropriate use,
23 and it does meet the criteria.
24 MS. BELL: Any other comments by Board
25 members? Bob.
79
1 they knew there
were better locations, and they
resorted to
2 this.
3
And I still believe it's not a good
location.
4 And as to what
other businesses could be there?
Insurance
5 office, travel
agency, I could think of a lot of
low end --
6
MS. BELL: Okay. Thank you. Are
you ready
7 for that motion?
8 MS. WEITKUNAT: I'll recommend approval of
9 the First National Plaza amended final with the standard
10 condition.
11 MS. BELL: Do we have a second?
12 MR. GAVALDON: I'll second the motion.
13 MS. BELL: It's been moved and seconded. Do
14 we have comments from Board members?
15 MR. GAVALDON: The comment I would like to
16 make is based on the suggestions and concerns and the
17 inferences made by all the parties. I believe that the
18 traffic study is very comprehensive. It covers a lot of
19 variables and details. I know we can't catch everything,
20 but I think they made the most reasonable attempt. In terms
21 of rendering and mitigations, a lot of neat efforts were '
22 made on it, and I'll say neat because I think it's creative
23 with the attempt to berm, to landscape, and their diligent
24 effort on taking the data and making the best efforts, given
25 the surrounding area and the uses. I feel that this is
1 for a motion at this time. Is there someone who would like
2 to make a motion?
3 MR. DARENZO: I'm sorry to approach the
4 Board. I just want to bring up something that Mr. Driscoll
5 did bring up, concerning drive -ups and banks. There are two
6 brand new banks that opened in this town. First Bank opened
7 at Lemay and Harmony Road without a drive -through at all.
' 8 They never proposed a drive -through, they chose not to put a
9 drive -through in. Key Bank right across the street, those
I10 are industrial areas. They opened with a drive -through and
11 they have since closed their drive -through down.
I12 MS. BELL: Thank you.
13 THE CLERK: Excuse me, could you state your
14 name for me, please.
15 MR. DARENZO: My name is Ron Darenzo.
16 MS. BELL: It's not particularly customary
17 for us to take a lot of extra remarks after public -- is it
18 very -- is it brief?
19 MS. ACKERSON: Very brief. My name is Beth
20. Ackerson, and in response to, "We had customers coming in
21 and saying, when's the -- when are you going to get an ATM?"
22 They have a sign out on the lawn saying, "ATM coming soon,"
23 for almost three months -- I mean a drive -up, I'm sorry.
24 "Drive -up coming soon," and also I have a question on why
25 did they look at all these other locations first. I think
77
1 what the potential bank deposits are. Because that's where
2 we -- that's where we make our money, by gathering deposits
I3 and by making loans, not by, quite frankly, we don't make
4 money by the number of transactions in the lobbies and
I5 drive -ups are all clogged up.
6 So our analysis is much more geared towards
1 7 the median incomes and the demographics of the area and the
1 8 deposits that'are available.
9 MR. DAVIDSON: One other question, and you
10 may or may not be able to answer this, it might be more of a
11 question for Fred, and I also heard that urban drive -through
12 banks have less vehicles per hour than suburban drive-in
13 banks; is that true?
14
MR. DRISCOLL: I would think probably,
15
generally,
but it probably differs greatly from market toT
16
i
market. I
don't have any statistics on that. I don't know
17
if what I
hear you saying, if a bank drive -up in downtown
18
Denver would
have as many vehicles through it as a bank
19
drive -up out
in Aurora. I don't know. It probably has a
20
lot to do
with the size of the bank and the mix of
21
customers.
I'm not sure there would be any data on that, at
22
least that
I'm not aware of.
23
MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. Thank you.
24
MR. DRISCOLL. Sure. Thanks.
25
MS. BELL: I think we might be getting ready
E
I
76
1 MR. DAVIDSON: So based upon the idea that
2 you know what market that location will serve, and the
3 customers that already exist, and also the possibility --
4 I'm sure there are some projected expectations of what new
5 customers you can garner for that location. I would think
6 you could have come up with some projected VTMs for the near
7 future.
8 MR. DRISCOLL: I'm sorry, what VTMs?
9 MR. DAVIDSON: Vehicle trips.
10 MR. DRISCOLL. Okay.
11 MR. DAVIDSON: Seems like .you would have come
12 up with some future expectations of how much traffic you
13 would be going through there.
14 MR. DRISCOLL: We really look at it quite
15 differently. We look at it based on deposits. In fact,
16 Mr. Ackerson talked about the number of drive -up lanes
17 available in a fairly small place in Loveland. Well, it's
18 the center of town and it draws from the entire area, and
19 there's a lot of bank deposits concentrated in that area
20 because of the commercial businesses, and it's a center of
21 town.
22 So we look at it in the same way in a market
23 study. We don't think of it in terms of numbers of
24 transactions, but we look at numbers of the households,
25 potential income, the demographics of the area, just how --
75
1 them. We have a -- we do our studies by census tract, and
2 we look at the number of customers we have within that
3 census tract versus the number of households and our
4 household penetration is 21 percent in a fairly broad area,
5 so we have a fairly significant market share already there.
6 MR. DAVIDSON: And you're also looking for a
7 new potential market there I would think?
8 MR. DRISCOLL: Yes. Yeah, we are looking for
9 new customers.
10 MR. DAVIDSON: And I would think you're
11 looking at all of those developments that I've talked about
12 a short while ago that will be going in?
13 MR. DAVIDSON: Yeah, certainly to the west
14 there's going to some development and to the south. And one
15 of the things we have to look at as a service business, we
16 do have to provide good service. If we develop a facility
17 that in a certain period of time, one, two, three, however
18. many years becomes clogged and crowded and not very
19 convenient, customers are going to go away. They're either
20 not going to come bank with us or go somewhere else, and so
21 it's part of your business plan is to analyze the traffic
22 numbers, analyze the number of customers, and then if we get
23 a situation where we are clogged up, then we look for
24 another location where we could take the pressure off that
25 particular location.
74
1 Drake was going to be developed, and there's a bank pad site
2 there.
3 Of course, that hasn't gone anywhere. So we
4 looked everywhere that we could. Our normal standard branch
5 office is typically much bigger than this one, and we used
6 basically what was available. There is no possibility
7 inside the center. I know the neighbors have mentioned that
8 many times, why don't you build it inside? Well, the owner
9 is not anxious to give up space within the center.
10 I'm sure Safeway and Walgreens and the others
11 would be -- so we did investigate several sites in the area.
12 We do an analysis of the marketplace and look for the best
13 location, and Drake and Taft certainly is, from a banker's
14 standpoint, a great location for a banking office. And we
15 looked at all the corners and came up with this possibility.
16 MR. DAVIDSON: I would think when you also
17 were doing your marketing, you were also looking at what the
18 potential market of this area, as far as number of people.
19 Because it seems to me you're covering from Horsetooth north
20 to -- I don't know whether the north end of town, but
21 definitely as far as Elizabeth, as far as potential
22 customers driving to this bank. So did you -- did you come
23 up with any figures or expectations there, for the area that
24 you located?
25 MR. DRISCOLL: We did it. I can't quote
I
73
1 MS. BELL: I just wanted to do a follow-up on
2 Glen's question and maybe make it simpler to understand. Is
3 this type of facility is considered to be a low, medium, or
4 high traffic generator? Does someone know -- I mean in the
5 whole spectrum of traffic generation, it must have its
6 place, somewhere?
7 MR. JONES: It's a vehicle orientated
8 operation. It -- it's probably for the square footage of
9 the bank, it's probably going to generate more trips than
10 say a comparable size single family residence for a
11 commercial type of business, it's in the medium range.
12 MS. BELL: Any other Board questions?
13 MR. DAVIDSON: Mr. Driscoll, couple more
14 questions.
15 MR. DRISCOLL. Yes, sir. I should stay up I
16 guess.'
17 MR. DAVIDSON: Did the bank ever look at
18 other options as far as locations within the service center
19 for•location for your drive-in?
20 MR. DRISCOLL: We did -- we tried to acquire
21 the car wash and gas station on the other side. The guy
22 told us, no. We tried to acquire property across the street
23 where the church is, told us, no. The -- catty -corner from
24 First National Plaza is a development or some land that you
25 are all familiar with, the southeast corner of Taft and
72
' 1 I'm just trying to understand a little bit, I
2 guess, the thought behind the drive-in. I don't use them a
3 lot.
4 MR. DRISCOLL: About drive -up facilities,
5 first of all, they are an expense. They are purely put
6 together as a service. It's about 50/50 at all of our sites
7 on inside traffic versus drive -up traffic. So in our quest
8 to provide delivery systems to meet the needs of people and
9 what they want to do, we provide ATMs, we provide walk-up
10 facilities., we provide drive -up facilities, PC banking, all
11 of those things, but it's about a 50/50 proposition right
12 now.
13 We are a business that tries to meet the
14 expectations of our customers. They ask. We have had --
15 our manager, Jennifer's here, and she says we get questions
16 all of the time, when you're going to have a drive -up, when
17 are you going to have a drive -up? Some of the marketplace
18 -- people in the market like to bank that way, others want
19 to come in, so it's a service that the industry has begun to
20 provide over the years because of our -- people like to do
21 business in their cars. But it's not a money-maker..
22 It's a pure sunk cost and overhead to us, and
23 we do it to do enhance the service, we provide our
24 customers.
25 MR. COLTON: Thank you.
I
rANI
1 I would think that a video store would produce much more
2 traffic and at all times of the day than say a drive -up bank
3 facility open from 7:00 to 6:00 p.m.
4 So I don't know what type of development
5 proposal could occur on the site. It is a commercial area.
6 I would think that the bank -- I have been concerned with
7 drive -up bank traffic. Last Friday I went to the First
8 National facility at noon at the Old Town off of Oak Street
9 and Mason, and I think they've got about seven or eight
10 drive -up lanes there. There were three cars, and this was
11 at noon peak.
12 So I know that there is a potential of a lot
13 of traffic, but in most of my observations of drive -through
14 facilities in Fort Collins, whether it's on College'Avenue',
15 whether it is at the Norlarco Credit Union or some'of those
16 facilities, they really don't generate as much traffic as
17 we're fearful for.
18 MR. COLTON: Okay. Thank you. And I guess
19 this question is for Mr. Driscoll. These people seem to
20 think that the existing bank which you drive into and stop'
21 at is really good, but a drive -through isn't really needed.
22 What sort of effect does it have on your business? I guess,
23 if we just said this is denied,.would a lot of people still
24 say, "Well, gee, I got to bank, I can drive to there, and I
25 could just walk in."
70
1 movement. It's a collector street. We normally don't like
2 to prohibit moves on a collector street, if it's not
3 necessary.
4 MR. COLTON: Okay. And over on that south
5 exit because -- the neighborhoods are suggesting the right
6 turn out. I could see that a lot of people would go over
7 the exit and maybe want to take a left turn out. And
S currently they're allowed to do that, and that's getting a
9 lot closer to the corner of Drake and Taft Hill. Is that
10 full turn going to be allowed there in the future, do you
11 think or --
12 MR. JONES: Yes, it is. It's primarily a "T"
13 intersection, so it's a -- where the south access point is,
14 so it only has left outs, right outs, lefts and rights ins,
15 so it doesn't have through movement.
16 MR. COLTON: Okay. And the neighborhoods
17 also suggested that perhaps there are other uses that could
18 be here. What sort of traffic generation patterns are there
19 by other possible uses that could be at this site compared
20 to this use? Certainly a fast food restaurant would have
21 much more, I assume. How about other retail uses?
22 . MR. JONES: I was thinking about that too,
23 Mr. Colton, and I think at the last meeting is, was
24 mentioned a "C" store, as many video stores that are popping
25 up in that area, I know at the Shields and Drake location.
Cs
1 intersections. This particular intersection has had a
2 warrant study on it. It is on our list of potential
3 locations for traffic signals.
4 It doesn't mean that we would build one in
5 the immediate future, but if they did meet warrants in the
6 future, it would not be precluded from the potential
7 location for a signal.
8 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. Thanks, Fred.
9 MS. BELL: Any other questions by Board
10 members? Glen.
11 MR. COLTON: Fred, another of this
12 rebuilding this intersection. Is it going to continue to'be
13 allowed to do lefts out of both Hampshire and the exit to
14 the east? Or is there going to be a median there perhaps
15 dividing it, which would say "Right turn only," similar to
16 like there is over like at Drake and Shields>
17 MR. JONES: Would that be on Hampshire itself
18 or --
19 MR. COLTON: I think on Hampshire -- would
20 continue to be allowed to turn left off of there, or would
21 there be a median there, perhaps sometime in the future when
22 the traffic warrants it there, as well as also the -- I
23 don't know the name of the exit, but the south exit from the
24 shopping center.
25 MR. JONES: Yes, it will be a full access
68
1 other access over to the open space between Stuart Street
2 and Drake Road, I'm not sure exactly. I was out there last
3 week and did a -- I thought there was one. I couldn't find
4 it when I originally went through there, but the kids do
5 know those access points, and they've got the dirt fairly
6 well beaten down in there.
7 MR. DAVIDSON: The only other question I have
8 is stacked -up traffic. I do have to agree, I think that's
9 going to become a real problem in the future possibly at
10 peak hours because you don't have much distance from that
11 entrance or exit, however, you want to look at it over to
12 Drake. So I mean what would we do with that? Obviously, a
13 light would be warranted, what happens in between?
14 MR. JONES: There currently is 200 feet from
15 the north edge of Hampshire and Drake Road.to the south
16 access point looking at 20 feet per vehicle. We could
17 potentially store 10 vehicles in there for that period.
18 There is other access points on to the arterial street
19 system. You can use Valley.Forge over to Taft Hill Road.
20 There.is a signal .there that would be a right turn on to the
21 arterial if you were going to the south.
22 This is not a only access point on to an
23 arterial street, so I would think that before it got that.
24 congested, other people would find a less congested route.
25 But again, we would be continuing to evaluate all the
r WA
1 and it just happens to come out at this point in time over
2 there at the cul-de-sac across the street. What do you know
3 of that and what's planned there to take care of that?
4 MR. JONES: When the development for
5 Hampshire Court was proposed, there was an easement that was
6 placed upon the two properties at the west edge of Hampshire
7 Court that was a pedestrian access easement, it's 20 feet in
8 width and that was with the eventuality that a pedestrian
9 trail would occupy the Pleasant Valley canal and storm
I10 drainage retention area to the west of the site. That's
11 about all I know of the trail. I don't know if there's any
12 capital funds, Kathleen probably could address that.
13 MS. RIVAS: At this time, I'm not familiar
14 with any funds that have been set aside to construct that by
15 the City, so I don't know what the timing would be on that
16 type of a trail.
17 MR. DAVIDSON: I guess I do have some
18 concerns there, because I know that neighborhood fairly
19 well, and like one of the individuals we're talking about,
20 that entire area is cut off. There is no access -other than
21 by Stuart or by Drake, so it seems like it will bea likely
22 hot spot for bicycles in the future when that is.connected
23 through.
24 MR. JONES: It currently is a well used earth
25 trail back along the Pleasant Valley canal. There is one
66
1 would push it up to the top of the priority list for
2 building a traffic signal at this time.
3 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. Fred, one other thing
4 I'm thinking about -- I guess I'm wondering why we didn't
5 try to project traffic for this intersection for the future,
6 based upon there's so much development around our area. We
7 have Ponds at Overland Trail which, of course, has just
8 started. We are talking quite a few homes there. We are
9 talking Scenic Views, we are talking Lory Ann Estates, we
10 are talking Sienna, and we are talking development directly
11 across the street from Drake Crossing.
12 MR. JONES: That's a very good point.
13. MR. DAVIDSON: And obviously, I think a lot
14 of these people might wind up using this bank because it
15 will be the closest one around.
16 MR. JONES: The original thought behind that,
17 Mr. Davidson, was that when this particular traffic study
18 was commissioned, we were in the process of working with the
19 neighborhood group in a project team to look at the Overland
20 Trail extension, and we really didn't know what kind of a
21 growth factors to have them model, so we looked at it in a
22 five year projection versus a 15 or 20 year projection.
23 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. And what do you know
24 about -- they were also talking bike trail that will be
25 connected, I guess in the future that runs along the canal,
65
1 whether there's plenty of gaps.
2 So we do currently operate those, but most of
3 the time we would not want to operate that if there were
4 pedestrians present, because whether a signal goes to flash,
5 it also turns off the pedestrian crosswalk lights, and
6 that's probably not a real good thing to have happen during
7 the regular course of day. Late at night when the
8 pedestrian activity is very low, the vehicle volumes are
9 very low. That type of operation does work very well.
10 MR. DAVIDSON: So I guess what I'm thinking
11 is what would be the difference between having flashing red
12 during non -peak day hours, or just having a stop sign? I
13 don't see any loss there at all.
14 MR. JONES: Well --
15 MR. DAVIDSON: And you'd gain the red light
16 when you need it.
17 MR. JONES: And they do use those primarily
18 around industrial type of facilities like Woodward Governor
19 or Hewlett Packard where you did have a particular time of
20 day that your traffic would get off of its shift.change.
21 You bring the light on for that specific one hour period and
22 then it would.go back into the flash mode. This is more of
23 other neighborhood environment and currently in my
24 observations of the traffic operation at the intersection of
25. .Hampshire and Drake, I didn't see a significant delay that
1 at the other circumstances of how would the businesses
2 directly east of the laundromat, primarily, and the dry
3 cleaning business, how would they access the parking spaces
4 if it was a "Right turn only," and it would require anyone
5 that wanted to park behind the laundromat to have to go
6 through the drive -up facility to access the parking lot.
7 Now, of course, we could put a regulatory
8 sign that says "Right turn only," but if it wasn't
9 physically built that you would have to make a right turn,
10 people would violate that and make a left.
11 MS. BELL: Any other questions from the
12 Board?
13 MR. DAVIDSON: One thought I had for a
14 traffic light would be -- couldn't you have a traffic light
15 that functioned as a traffic light during peak hours and the
16 rest of the hours function more as a blinking red light for
17 stop? Is that anything that would commonly do anywhere?
18 MR. JONES: Yes, it is. We currently operate
19 Valley Forge, for instance, and also Drake and Dunbar as a
20 peak demand light; that in the off-peak hours primarily
21 after midnight, the signal will go to flash to minimize the
22 vehicle delay for those folks on the side street as well as
23 the people on the main street. It's kind of a nuisance when
24 one vehicle pulls up to a light, and the car on the main
25 street has to stop and wait for one car to go through
63
1 take under consideration if needed?
2 MR. JONES: The master street plan identifies
3 the roadway network for the master street plan. It does not
4 identify, per se, the locations for traffic signals. Those
5 are based upon City Engineering criteria.
6 MS. BELL: And a warrant for a light is based
7 -- it is based only on peak hours, or is it based upon those
8 peak flows overflowing into other times of the day as well?
9 MR. JONES: There are 11 warrant criteria
10 that need to be met. Number one, is for volume of traffic,
11 and that is based upon approach volumes to an intersection:
12 There are others that would be interruptions to continuous`
13 flow of traffic, four hour volume, accident warrants, those
14 types of things that are taken into consideration, more than
15 just a peak hour delay.
16 MS. BELL: And one other question. On this
17 suggestion to have a right turnout.only, I guess what that
18. would do -- would that force traffic -- I guess, it would
19 force it back up through some mechanism, either through the
20 side or back up north on Hampshire Road on to Valley Forge
21 to use the signalized intersection at Valley Forge and South
22 Taft; is that --
23
MR. JONES:
There were several issues,
and
24
upon the initial blush of
the suggestion, City staff
could
25
support making the exit a
"Right out only." When you
look
62
1 pedestrian activated flashing signal that would only flash
2 when the pedestrian was there.
3 That would be nothing more than an additional
4 warningdevice to allow the motorist the opportunity pportunity to
5 realize that there is a pedestrian waiting to go across. It
6 doesn't give the pedestrian any more significant
7 rights -of -way. That is outlined in the Colorado State Model
8 Traffic Code. So those were some of the options. When the
9 traffic consulting firm did a follow-up study and looked at
i10 the impacts that the bank would create and whether those
11 were significant enough to require off -site improvements, it
I12 was determined at that time that the volumes that the bank
13 would produce would be not necessary to mitigate from the
14 off -site standpoint.
15 The original study with the 1200 vehicle
16 trips or additional 600 vehicles, also fit in to the Land
17 Use or LDGS Criteria A-2.1, and noting that Hampshire
18 currently is carrying 2,900 vehicles per day. This volume
19 of traffic would not have pushed it past the envelope of
20 standard that we have currently for a collector roadway
21 which is between 2,500 vehicles to 5,000 vehicles per day.
22 MS. BELL: I just want to follow up on Karen's
23 question just to make sure I understand. On our master
24 street plan, we don't have currently, plans for a light at
25 Hampshire and Drake. It would just be something we would
61
i
1 When we do warrant studies, we also looked at the number of
2 pedestrians crossing the roadway. How far the pedestrian
3 amenities are in this case, Drake and Taft Hill does have a
4 crosswalk and a pedestrian signal in conjunction with a
5 traffic signal, so those considerations are taken into
6 account.
7 MS. WEITKUNAT: Okay. So at this point in
8 time it may be warranted but not necessitated?
9 MR. JONES: It may be warranted, yes, that is
10 correct.
11 MS.- WEITKUNAT: And as long as we are talking
12 about lights, I heard several people mention a flashing
13 yellow light. Could you address this in Traffic and
14 Pedestrian Interface, and its value or lack there of, or
15 possibility of inclusion?
16 MR. JONES: Yes, ma'am. When we met with the
17 neighborhood after our Planning and Zoning meeting, we did
18 discuss with them a number of potential options if the
19 bank's impacts were significant enough to have them do some
20 off -site improvements. One of those was to put in some curb
21 extensions to reduce the width of the roadway that the
22 pedestrians would need to cross the road. One was to paint
23 and sign a crosswalk, somewhere in the area of Hampshire
24 Court or at a mid -block location, or maybe enhance the
25 opportunities to identify the pedestrian crossing with a
60
1 MS. WEITKUNAT: Part of what they're saying
2 is you're addressing traffic in its current mode?
3 MR. JONES: Yes, ma'am.
4 MS. WEITKUNAT: Does this take into
5 consideration what will happen with future traffic if the
6 drive -through facility is built?
7 MR. JONES: There were a lot of circumstances
8 that surrounded the traffic study in it's current form. One
9 was the master street plans recommendation for Overland
10 Trail to be extended to be County Road 38. That at this
11 point, has been somewhat said that it won't happen, or if we
12 do allow it to happen, it will require further studies.
13 Those decisions when the master street plan was amended to
14 remove Overland Trail did address a need for further
15 analysis in the area, and what that particular removal of
16 that roadway would do to future traffic in the area.
17 So we're currently not sure what is going to
18 happen. Most of our modeling that went into the area was
19 based upon Overland Trail, and we do need to take a more
20 comprehensive look at what is going to happen in the area
21 now that Overland Trail has been amended.
22 MS. WEITKUNAT: And along the same line,
23 Fred, traffic signals are planned for vehicles as opposed to
24 pedestrian impacts?
25 MR. JONES: No, ma'am. They're for both.
59
' 1
traffic signal. Does that mean there will be one? I'm not
2
clear.
' 3
MR. JONES: That's a good question. We've
4
got collector streets that intersect with arterial streets
5
all over Fort Collins that currently do have a level of
6
service "E" or "F" for one to two hours out of a 24 hour
7
day. This does constitute what we determine a peak hour
8
warrant,.or warrant number 11, and we normally do not like
9
to build traffic signals based upon peak hour delay because
I10
you'll find that when it's off-peak hours, you end up having
11
to wait longer for a green light than you would for an
12
available gap of traffic, and it's a delicate balance
13
between when an intersection warrants a traffic signal, and
' 14
when it just has a peak hour delay.
15
In my observation, of Drake and Hampshire,
16
and I did look at it in a.m. peak and p.m. peak, I never saw
17
more than three cars waiting to make a left turn. And the
18
average vehicle delay in the morning that I measured was
19
about 14 seconds, and at p.m. peak was 24 seconds. So I
20
didn't see a significant delay that would tell me that we
21
need to immediately build a traffic signal at that location.
22
I couldn't rule it out for a future location,
23
although not desirable from a spacing standpoint from the
24
intersection of Drake and Taft Hill, but if it did meet and
25
warrants and --
58
1 difference in size, 63 million versus 3 million right now,
2 but this is a totally different kind of market. That's a
3 7,000 square foot facility, banking facility, we have an
4 1800 square foot facility.
5 We really did design this bank to be a
6 neighborhood facility. We don't, in any way, ever think
7 that this facility is going to become what we have downtown
8 or what we have at Boardwalk. We figure that no question in
9 our studies that it would serve a relatively small area,
10 would handle what is already a fairly large existing
11 customer base, reduce the amount of travel that people have
12 to go to Boardwalk or Oak Street because of the feedback
13 that we have gotten over the years, when are you going to
14 come out west?
15 So we believe we have built a facility or
16 have designed a facility that will accommodate our customers
17 that certainly will be efficient, and as the experts have
18 said, not create serious traffic problems. Thank you.
19 MS. BELL: Thank you. Now I'm going to bring
20 it back to the Board for discussion. Who would like to
21 begin? Karen.
22 MS. WEITKUNAT: I think Fred's on the line
23 here. I'm confused whether or not the intersection of Drake
24 -- no, sorry. Yeah, Drake and Hampshire will be signalized
25 or not. The report says Drake and Hampshire warrants a
57
1 limit it to Loveland, I'll speak to a couple of other
2 issues. There is another bank that's being built at the
3 corner of Shields and Horsetooth that I don't know how many
4 drive -ups they're going to have, but they plan to have
5 drive -up facilities.
6 So there is another bank including the
7 Norlarco Bank that's also west of college. So there will
8 continue to be more competitors, I'm sure. One of the
9 things I wanted to bring back is -- the neighborhood has a
10 lot of opinions about the amount of traffic. The City's own
11 traffic engineer and experts in the field have done studies,
12 have done valid studies and have determined that there is
13 not a problem that the bank facility does not create
14 additional traffic that is not manageable, does not create.
15 additional traffic that creates safety hazards.
16 So I think that while it's nice to have
i
17 opinions and nice to have passion, I think we also need to
18 have concern for the data. As a relation to the Loveland
19 facility, there are a number of differences in that
20 facility. I agree the -- our Loveland facility isIour only
21 facility in Loveland. We handle substantial commercial
22 business there. It's in the middle of town.
23 It draws from a much larger area than this
24 facility would ever draw from, and it has a 400 transaction
25 cars on a busy Friday afternoon. The -- certainly there's a
56
1 MS. BELL: Would you be able to finish up
2 your comments now?
3 MR. ACKERSON: Sure. Basically we feel that
4 as a neighborhood, the people I've talked with, we feel that
5 the original traffic study is what the Planning and Zoning
6 Board needs to go with. And with the original traffic
7 study, we're looking at some real increases in automotive
8 traffic, both at the intersection of Hampshire and Drake and
9 at the west entrance. And there's going to be some real
10 pedestrian concerns.
11 We think the center should be located
12 internally or somewhere else. But we think at least what
13 should happen is that they close the west exit so that
14 people can enter but not exit at the west entrance, or have
15 a right turn only from the bank back into the center to keep
16 the traffic to a minimum. Thank you.
17 MS. BELL. Is there anybody else who wishes
18 to address the Board on this matter? Okay. Then I'll bring
19 it back before the Board for discussion. Oh, I do need to
20 give the applicant -- there seems to be new information that
21 got brought up. if the applicant would like to do a
22 rebuttal. I think it was limited to mainly the discussion
23 of the Loveland store, maybe five minutes.
24 MR. DRISCOLL: Okay. Thank you. Madam
25 Chair, there were several -- I hope I don't have to totally
0
0
55
1 accelerating -- or people who have come up to Drake or
2 they're decelerating when they're seeing the stop sign at
3 Hampshire coming down to the south, and so there was a
4 speeding problem, 85 percentile was over 30 miles an hour as
5 it was, and that's in my opinion, an acceleration or
6 deceleration zone.
7 One of the things that the people noted is
8 that it would increase pedestrian safety and -- let see
9 here, I want to -- I want to find this. They were saying it
10 would increase pedestrian safety. Oh, Kim Leah Horn said
11 this, by adding additional -- under speeding on page 9 of
12 their revised traffic study, it says, "By adding additional
13 turning traffic out of the west entrance onto Hampshire,
14 additional vehicle interaction is created so cars will slow
15 down. As cars turn in front of them, so there will be less
16 speeding problems."
17 So my question is, is that basically we can
18 pump out as many cars as we want on that intersection,
19 that's going to decrease speeding? That maybe decrease
20 speeding, it's going to increase the number of accidents and
21 certainly going to increase the pedestrian problems that you
22 have there in the access which again is very limited. As I
23 showed you in the beginning, the pedestrian access is very
24 limited. It's either Drake, Hampshire Court, or way north
25 Stuart, for the neighborhood to the west of that ditch.
N
54
1 So that traffic wasn't brought back out into
2 Hampshire Road. One of the things that will be interesting
3 to note, is the original study said that, "Current levels
4 right now that leave the west entrance," -- that entrance
5 that you see up there on to Hampshire Road -- "Current
6 levels have seven cars, seven cars leaving per hour, and 5
7 of them turn north, and two of them turn south." Under the
8 modified traffic study, which I think is a biased traffic
9 study that does not fairly reflects what is really going to
10 happen. They say, 1112 cars will go out and turn right, and
11 13 cars will go out and turn left," so you have 25 cars.
12 Under original traffic study, which I think
13 is going to be very accurate, it may not happen in six
14 months, but I'd say six months to a year. It's going to be
15 an accurate study, the original traffic study that used ITE
16 information. They had a total of 76 cars -- well, let me
17 back up -- 82 cars entered during peak hours from 4:00 to
18 6:00. 82 cars entered and 76 left at the west entrance.
19 And of the 76, 39 of them turned north and 37
20 turned south. And again, looking at those numbers and
21 looking at how far, your talking about 125 feet, I believe,
22 down to. the intersection with Drake. There's a real
23 potential for bottlenecking there.
24 The speeding that -- I would also agree that
25 it was connected too close to Drake. People are still
53
1
minutes. Will that be enough?
1 2
MR. ACKERSON: Yeah, that would be fine.
3
Let's see, the -- later in the study, it's states that -- it
1 4
1
states that they estimate 25 percent of the customers for
5
this new First National Bank at Drake Crossing will be
6
people who have formerly banked at Boardwalk, and 25 percent
7
more people who formally banked at the Oak Street Plaza. We
8
feel -- they said the estimate, the 25 percent estimate is
9
derived from there being no drive -up facilities in this
10
relatively dense residential area.
11
We agree that there are no drive -through
12
facilities in this area. We feel, again, to compare -- to
` 13
compare this site with sites that are nothing like this is
14
as far as residential density, as far as lack of banks
15
around, and all that is not a fair thing. We believe they
16
say it will certainly increase trip generation.
17
One of the problems with the things we --
i 18
personally, I agree with the Land Use Plan, and I talked'to
19
you about that the last time I was here, and I agree with
20
vehicle miles on travel decreasing that I don't agree with
21
the plan here. I don't have a problem with the bank
22
locating this .within the center. I don't have a problem
23
with the bank putting some of the suggestions that we talked
24
about like, a right turn only, to have basically an entrance
25
into it, and then have a right turn only on the exit.
7
i
52
1
1
again, there is no comparison in my opinion. That's it for
2
the Loveland comparison.
3
When I compare it to the North College
4
facility, there's some real problems there also. In the ITE
5
trip generation manual, it says under data collection that
6
"If you're going to select a site for a multi -use study, the
7
site has to be fully developed." Again in this ITE manual
8
that everybody -- that the City suggested people use. It
9
says, "The site should be fully developed. Sites new and
10
partially developed may not have reached a mature state, and
11
would not necessarily generate the full rate as a fully
12
developed site would."
13
If you go up to the Union Colony site -- or
14
the First National site, that again, was Union Colony in
15
January on North College, they are in the Albertson's center
16
there. Albertson's is the only store there that's open
17
there in retail center, everything else they haven't even
18
completed the retail part of that center that heads north
19
and south next to the Albertson's. So that is not a
20
developed site, so to say that is comparable is not
21
accurate.
22
And again that -- the First National,.North
23
College site is only 1.7 miles from the First National Bank
24
main office which has 11 drive -ups and one drive -up ATM.
25
MS. BELL: Sir, you have about five more
51
1 Eisenhower north, south, and I said that's enough because
2 it's obvious to me that this is not a comparable site.
3 You're talking about 12 banks within 1.4 mile radius of this
4 with a total drive -up teller lanes, and four drive -up ATMs.
5 And not only that, it's in Loveland. You're talking about
6 that number of banks within Loveland, that has a lower
7 population to begin with, so that's not a fair comparison.
8 In addition, the First National Bank here at
i
9 Eisenhower is in a facility that has five offices from my
I10 count.• The biggest other office in there is a Payless
11 Shoes, and then it's got a hair cutting place and office,-'
I12 and then has empty office space. It's a very small -
13 facility. It's not going to draw the traffic into the
14 facility like Drake Crossing does. So that's my comparison
15 with the Loveland facility. How many banks are within 1.4
116 miles of the Drake Crossing, First National Bank? Zero.
17 There's no banks within 1.4 miles. The closest bank is
18 Norlarco Credit Union which happens to be 1.8 miles and it
19 has four drive -up lanes. The next closest one is the Key
20 Bank, and that has a couple, if they're even open.
21 One of my friends is saying they weren't.
22 I'm not sure if that's the Key Bank location or another one.
23 The next one is Colorado National Bank, 2.8 miles, and that
24 has_four drive -ups, and then Bank One is the next one which
25 is 2.9 miles away which has five to six drive -up lanes, so
50
1
The First National Bank facility and at Eisenhower is
2
located right here at the corner of Eisenhower and Lincoln.
a 3
It is worthy to note that was formally a
e
4
Union Colony Bank before January of this year, and .of
5
course, in my opinion, Union Colony has a different -- has
6
different number of assets, different number of services
7
that they offer, and a different customer base certainly
8
than the First National Bank does overall. I think First
9
National Bank is hard to compare to begin with. To say it's
I10
a comparable site, if you look at within one six -tenths of a
11
mile to the south, there is 20 drive -up teller and two
I12
drive -up ATM only lanes within sixth -tenths of a mile.
13
That's nothing like this site here at Drake
14
Crossing. Again, this is just over half a mile. If you
15.
look to the west, you've got -- to the west within 1.4
16
miles, you have six more drive -up lanes, and if you look to
17
the north within 1.4 miles, I did not include Norwest bank
18
-- or, I'm sorry, within 1.1 miles Norwest Bank was -- I
19
didn't even measure that. I think it is one and three
20
quarter or something. But if you look within 1.1,miles to
21
the north, you have eight additional drive -up teller lanes
22
and two drive -up ATM lanes.
23
So again, within 1.4 miles. Just looking to
24
the west, south, and north, I'm not talking =- I didn't even
25
drive to the east. I just came down, went straight on
49
1
bigger than the drive -through. They decreased the number of
2
i
employees from three to four down to two to three, and then
3
they state that "An urban facility would have higher trip
' 4
generation than a suburban facility." And according to ITE
5
manual, I'm quoting out of the fourth edition, basically, it
6
says, "Downtown towards," and I can submit this for public
7
record, it said, "Trip generations rates indicated herein,
8
are from the outside, the downtown -- vehicular trip
9
generation rates and several business districts are normally
I10
lower than those in suburban areas."
11
And the reason they say that it was things:
I12
like mass transit carpooling and some other things during::
13
peak traffic times. And again, I've highlighted the whole-
14
paragraph. I just don't have the time to read it right now.
15
They state, "If the comparison between Kim Leah Horn says-
16
the ITE numbers and the characteristics of development are
17
not consistent as desired, traffic engineers can conduct
18
specific site studies of similar sites.
19
This can be more accurate of ITE if they have
20
comparable sites," so my biggest premise here that I really
21
want the Board to hear is that there are not comparable
22
sites. The sites that they did this study on Eisenhower and
23
on North College are not comparable, and I will show you "
24
why. Here's my map of Loveland, and actually both of these
25
things that I've drawn, I -try to draw -somewhat to scale.
Y
48
1 and bottlenecked in the area from Hampshire north, all the
2 way to the entrance to the drive -up facility. And again,
3 that's really going to be a problem for pedestrian access.
4 The original study used the traffic engineers ITE trip
5 generation manual, which they state in the study is a
6 standard procedure for the City of Fort Collins.
7 It's my understanding that developments of
8 this nature would have to use that type of manual. They
9 also say it's commonly used by professional traffic
10 engineers. I believe that unless you have concrete proof,
11 that it wouldn't apply, that you should go with the numbers
12 that. the City routinely uses. They go on to state that the
13 drive -up only has 425 square feet, significantly smaller
14 than the facilities used in the trip generation manual,
15 which they report to range from 800 to 13,000 square feet.
16 Most banks have drive -up facilities within
17 the main office as part of the main office. If you include
18 the main office, which is 1800 square feet here, you
19 basically are up to 2225 square feet which is well within
20 the range. Many 800 to 1300 square feet, well within the
21 range noted in the ITE traffic manual. And I'd again --
22 when they say 800 to 13,000 square feet, I'd be amazed to
23 see a 13,000 square feet facility devoted only to
24 drive -through traffic.
25 That would be something to see. It would be
47
1
it operates at a level of service of "D." And that with the
1 2
bank being implemented it will operate as a level of service
3
"E." By the year 2002, it will operate at a level of
' 4
t
service "F."
5
Currently the wait period for a left turn off
6
Hampshire to head east on Drake, warrants a light as it is,
7
not to mention with the additional traffic with the drive -up
8
facility. And Kim Leah Horn says that on page 13 of their
I 9
original report, they say, "A traffic signal is already
10
I
warranted without a bank due to vehicle delays, and
11
recommends that the City install a signal." The traffic
12
signal is not an option according to our talks with the City
13
because it is too close to Drake and Taft Hill intersection
14
and will cause some problems.
15
Similar to probably what goes on at
16
Horsetooth and McClelland and Mason with succession of
17
lights and we can understand that, but'to say that there's
18
no issue, in my opinion,is not accurate. Basically, you
19
have room for about six cars -- six or seven cars to backup
20
before you start hitting the entrance to the bank. 'So
21
again, if you're putting out the original traffic study said
22
76 cars are exiting per hour at peak times and 37 or so -- I
23
have it written down here, later I will address that, will
24
be turning south.
25 It's easily going to be able to be stacked up
46
1 of things to make sidewalks prettier, but if you increase
2 the vehicles that come in or out of that center by two to
3 three times or whatever.
4 It doesn't matter how nice the sidewalks are,
5 the pedestrian access is not improved, and I'm actually
6 surprised to hear some of the other members who are
7 representing the bank, saying that pedestrian access is
8 going to be improved or increased because as with the woman
9 who is disabled, who is part of our neighborhood that
10 couldn't make it tonight talked about it, we've talked about
11 it on numerous occasions since then, she would much rather
12 have no improvements and not have the increased traffic
13 because basically, the traffic is a real pedestrian hazard.
14 It's not the lack of appropriate, you know,
15 curb cuts at different locations for her anyway. She was
16 mainly concerned with the increase in traffic. The study is
17 that -- the revised study that they presented has some
18 serious flaws, and I would like to deal with those.
19 Originally, they said in the follow-up study, Kim Leah Horn
20 said, "They did not do any follow-up on the level of service
21 or capacity because the initial report found no significant
22 impacts."
23, As you may remember, the commercial report
24 actually found a significant impact at the intersection of
25 Drake and Hampshire Roads. The impact being that currently
45
1 or come down Drake and cut across Hampshire in a variety of
2 locations, and again, with the future bike trail that will
3 be installed here, that's just going to increase pedestrian
4 traffic even more. Blevins Junior High is up here.
5 To give you some background on what's been
6 going on, basically at the last Planning and Zoning as
7 remember you had asked the City staff and the members of the
8 bank, and the members of the neighborhood who were concerned
9 to get together and work out issues. Basically, we met with
10 the City, with two City -staff on one occasion, and gave them
11 our ideas.
12 Although we still oppose the proposed
13 drive -up period, we gave them some idea that we thought
14 would help mitigate the vehicle issues. What happened is
15 that none of those suggestions were taking -- they were
16 looked at supposedly, but none of them were brought in --
17 revised into this plan. And what the bank did was increase
18 the stop sign which -- we didn't -- actually, that wasn't
19 one of the things that we suggested, and they also revised
20 the traffic study.
21 My biggest thing is that I really have a
22 problem with the revised traffic study, and I will go
23 through kind of bit by bit why that is. Again, the main
24 issue for me, is that as some of the other people have
25 stated, you can increase the sidewalk size, you can do a lot
t
a
44
1
Drake Road. So this is completely fenced. There's no
2
access to any of these areas. I walked down there every day
3
or two.
4
So again, that's the point, so one of my big
5
issues is that the neighborhood center -- this isn't the
6
pedestrian friendly thing. It's not just a local issue to
7
Hampshire Court or Hampshire Pond or Hampshire Square which,
8
again, we canvas these areas, and we actually only started
9
the petition in Hampshire Pond, and everybody but two
1 10
individuals that we talked to, who said they didn't care one
11
way or the other, everybody else was opposed to the
I12
drive -up. Most of them liked having a bank there.
13
A lot of the people there are First National
14
Bank customers, as am I. And Hampshire Square we did not --
15
we did a petition the second time around where they only hit
I16
follow-up houses from the people who they haven't been able
17
to contact the first time, so it would be interesting to
18
actually -- I'm sure you'll get a lot more names from there
19
than --'we had gotten. I'm trying to think if there's
20
anything else that's important to -- anyway, it's just
21
people who live west on Drake.
22
If the people who walk and bike -- the
23
teenagers who.go to Blevins, who live in Quail Hollow, all
24
the way everywhere west of here and south of. Stuart, we have
25
all kinds of people who either cut through our subdivision,
43
1 street from the proposed drive -up. There's a -- Hampshire
2 is designated as part of the Fort Collins bike system, and
3 it has bike lanes going in both directions all the way up
4 Prospect.
5 And in the future, there will be a bike lane
6 -- there will be a bike trail put in along the ditch here
7 which runs behind all of these neighborhoods. One of the
8 biggest things I like to point out here, is that there's no
9 access currently to the center right now except from Drake
10 or through Hampshire Court because we have left a gate open
11 in our yard between myself and, actually Terry's yard, where
12 we allow people to come through, and this is all a greenbelt
13 area. And there's no access to any of these neighborhoods.
14 It's completely fenced off.
15 There's no way to get to Hampshire Road from
16 the west unless you take Drake, unless you cut through
17 Hampshire Court, or unless you go all the -way up to Stuart
18 or the current bike trail which is about 50 feet south of
19 Stuart. So there's a real pedestrian accessability issue
20 here as it stands.
21 Basically, if you live north of Stuart, you
22 can come down Hampshire Road. But if you -- if you live
23 west of this ditch, then the only way is either to -- if ,you
24 live west of the ditch, then the only way is to access the
25 neighborhood center, is either through Hampshire Court or on
42
1
would like to address the Board on this topic this evening?
2
So 10 minutes or how many people?
c
3
MR. ACKERSON: My name is Chip Ackerson. I
4
spoke at the last meeting. Let me move this. I brought
5
this up to kind of show what some of the area looks like in
6
general, beyond just the pictures that you see others you
7
see. Here's Drake and here's Taft Hill, and the First
8
National Bank drive -up facility is right here. There are
9
things of some interest to note, there's a Montessori child
I10
center located 57 feet from the outside of their outdoor
11
playground and 57 feet from the edge of this drive -up area,
I12
the.edge of the parking lot.
.13
And that has quite a number of kids there. I
14
haven't counted them. I've been over there, and that play
15
area -gets very full during certain times of the day. So
16
fumes are an issue in my opinion for the kids that are
17
brought there. The Family Learning Center Day Care is
18
across the street and up about 100 feet or so, and that
19
again is a day care and it's my understanding they serve a
20
whole range of people including low income families, but
21
it's a very full day care, of course.
22
You have the Children's World over here which
23
has been in operation for a long time, also there are
24
several bus stops. There's Olander bus stop here on Valley
25
Forge, and there's a Bauder bus stop catty -corner across the
41
1 being implemented.
2 So that's a great concern of mine. One flaw
3- in the traffic studies I would like to point out, they had
4 set up their lines, their speed lines right here, so people
5 who are coming out of the center would greatly reduce
6 that because they had not had time to accelerate at all, so
7 they would lower the average speed of the cars, and people
8 turning -- coming up Valley Forge Road and down. would not
9 have time to accelerate either. And that would greatly
10 lower the average of the speed of cars going through the
11 intersection. -
12 So for my last point, I would like tb alsd-
13 just say that when we moved into the neighborhood, yes, the
14 center was there -- the center was there as it is now.
15 That's how it was to remain. There was a pad site available
16 out there. We moved in knowing that pad site could' be
17 developed at some time. But with the City's forethought we
18 felt that it would be used for a more consumer friendly,
19 rather than a drive -through bank facility or a drive -up
20 restaurant facility. I wouldn't want to see that there
21 either. I wouldn't want to see something that would cause a
22 traffic dilemma.
23 Thank you very much for your time. ''Oh, I''m
24 sorry, *my name is Ron Darenzo.
25 MS. BELL: Is there anyone else present who
39
1 MR. DARENZO: Good evening members of the
2 Borard. First of all like to also say thank you to Steve
3 Olt and Fred who worked with us as a neighborhood group.
4 They met with us on several evenings to work with our
5 concerns and also at the bank. The president met with us
6 several days and members of -- their planners, we do
7 appreciate them, they did take us into concern. We still
8 feel though, that this is not appropriate use for the land.
9 We are not opposed to development of that
10 area, but I also live directly west of this on Hampshire
11 Court. My children and I, we walk and bike to the center:
12 all the time, it's very useful. They have a walk-up ATM
13 inside Safeway, and I guess there now going to put an ATM in
14 the walk-up facility. So for the gentleman from Quail
15 Hollow who has. --to drive clear over there, it won't hurt you
16 to•get out of your car and walk the 10 feet to your ATM
17 machine.
18 But there are two right there, and one is
19 very well lit inside the Safeway store, so that's a very
20 safe facility. So a drive -up ATM is kind of a mute point.
21' Some of the things that we brought tip at the neighborhood
22 meeting that aren't incorporated that we feel would make
23 this at.least•more palatable than it is at the present time,
24 is right now, all the traffic will be coming in through here
25 and around here. They can either make a left which will get
i
38
1
transportation. As members of the Drake Crossing
2
neighborhood, we have no objection to the presence of the
3
bank and the shopping center.
4
First National Bank has an outstanding
5
reputation in our city, and we welcome them as members of
6
our area, and hope that they will experience a profitable
7
atmosphere here; however, we feel a drive -through facility
8
of any kind will create inevitable increased traffic erosion
9
of safety and a reduction of safety -- I'm sorry, and a
10
reduction of a neighborhood feeling.
11
These items coupled with a City stated goal
I12
of reducing auto dependency weighed heavily against this
.13
proposal. It is time for the City to take a stand and do
14
the right thing, to do the necessary thing, and to make a
15
hard decision that may appear to be anti -business or
16
anti -growth, to really follow through with the vision.
17
We respectfully ask the members of the Board
18
to reject this proposal. Thank you for your time and
19
consideration." Should I submit this to you or sign
20
their names? What would you prefer?
21
MS. BELL: It could just be submitted.
22
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Could you read their name
23
into the record, please. Who wrote the record?
24
MS. ACKERSON: Yes, Jim and Nancy Nye.
25
MS. BELL: Next, please:.
36
1 improvements for pedestrians that they showed are all well
2 and fine, but that's not going to be off -set by the hazards
3 that they bring with four drive -up lanes.
4 The proposed drive -through would actually
5 decrease pedestrian usage of the center and attract
6 automotive traffic from an extended area to the proposed
7 drive -through facility for reasons the gentlemen from Quail
8 Hollow mentioned the convenience for them. This
9 auto -intensive type of business, I don't believe belongs at
10 this location. Granted the City may see a need for this
11 type of a facility in this particular area of town, as was
12 stated, there isn't one, you know, but I strongly recommend
13 that First National Bank be advised to take the time and
14 bear the expense.necessary to find an appropriate location
15 for their drive -through facility.
16 And I understand we want to encourage
17 business opportunity in our city, but we must also, and more
18 importantly, encourage community within neighborhoods, after
19 all, we're the ones who support such business. I have an
20 article that I got from the Rocky Mountain News, and I just
21 wanted to cite a few things out of it, it's done nationally.
22 It states that, "Pedestrian fatalities have
23 accounted for one out of seven people killed and an auto
24 accident over the past decade. Roughly 10 percent of
25 all vehicle injuries, according to a report prepared for a
35
1 all with signatures of people that are opposed, the -people
2 that we were able to contact just to give a representation
3 of the opposition in the neighborhood area.
4 The intersection at Drake and Hampshire Road
5 is currently -- already so congested, particularly at the
6 peak times that we find it a problem to enter and exit our
7 neighborhood via this intersection as it is. This past
8 Friday, there was a accident there coming out on Hampshire
9 Road.Trying to get on Drake is difficult. You can wait
10 there for a long time. That's how the accident occurred.
11 I'm not sure of the exact circumstance. Someone was sent"to
12 the hospital and -- and that's not the first one that's
13 occurred there.
14 Also I think when construction ends on Drake,
15 we are already -,-going to see a pick up in traffic. I think
16 some people avoid that at this point because that
17 construction has just been a big hassle. I think when that
18 clears up, we are going to see more use on Drake, depending
19 on what happens with Overland, I haven't heard the latest.
20 We are apt to get even more traffic coming that way for
21 access to Overland Trail.
22 My -- I guess my main point is I don't think
23 this drive -through will serve the neighborhood at all. The
24 pedestrian traffic in this residential area is heavy, and
25 that's good, and that's as it should be. First National
33
1 we built that brand new. We put a driveway going through
2 residential areas, and we closed the gate. It's never open
3 because we recognize the impact on the community.
4 So we do believe that there can be a win -win
5 situation. I'm personally disappointed that First National
6 Bank would think and come up here and song and dance, that
7 it was a win for the residents of that area and for the
8 bank. Far from that, there bruising the community that they
9 rely on to stay in business. So we do believe that with
10 good faith and with the overall good of the community as
11 number one, we can do this correctly. Thank you.
12 MS. BELL: Next, please.
13 MS. VAUGHN: My name is Marie Vaughn, and I
14 don't live in this neighborhood directly. I live up heret.
15 and my property backs right up to the day care center and-.-
16 Valley Forge Road, and I just wanted to say that I recently
17 refinanced my property, and there was no detriment to the
18 property value for being near a commercial area.' And
19 sometimes I'm annoyed by the commercial area when the people
20 decide to wash their cars at 4:00 o'clock in the morning,
21 you hear the buzzer go off.
22 And I have to remind myself that the
23 commercial area was there when I bought my property, and I
24 knew that there would be some problems. And I think some of
25 those people need to realize that, too. For the convenience
I
32
1 MR. GAZARTO: Hi, my name is Don Gazarto, and
2 I live in the development of Hampshire Court directly west
3 of the proposed development. And I just want to say that we
4 are not hard bent against development. We recognize the
5 empty space. We recognize that there are semi -trucks in
6 there once in a while, but we also recognize that there's
7 two schools in the area. There's three day cares. You
8 could throw a stone and hit all three of them from that
9 area. There's a bus stop right on the corner of the
10 development right here where they have -- they have
11 absolutely no raised walkways, no flashing lights, just some
12 white paint on the street.
13 And we don't think that's right. We do
14 believe that business and residential areas can have a
15 win -win situation, and we don't believe this is one of them
16 for the reasons you've heard, for the reasons I gave. I
17 work for the Woodward Governor Company. Both of our
18 facilities in Fort Collins and Loveland are surrounded by
.19 residential areas, but we didn't go putting a driveway right
20 through one of the neighborhoods.
21 Every one of the accesses is arterial. We
22 could very easily go through Governor's Park in Fort
23 Collins. I don't think they would like that very much to
24 have 500 cars going through there every day. But we' didn't
25 do it. And I think part of it, even the Loveland facility,
30
1
they can currently handle one transaction every three
2
minutes on -- on four lanes. That's a car every 46 seconds.
a
3
It's 155 trips possible during peak periods. And that's at
4
three minutes per transaction, is what they say they can do.
5
I don't -- if they're not hoping to produce
6
that kind of numbers, why are they building four lanes?
7
That looks like poor business. Handicap access -- if
8
they're not doing anything to change it, you're going to
9
increase the traffic tremendously. If you've been to the
10
site the half -- they're saying half the people going in and
11
out of west access. If you drive over there, it's by far
12
the easiest access is to go in and out right there.
13
It's not going to be half. The numbers they
14
gave .were 18 hour -- 18 per hour at peak and, you know, if
15
it's that few cars, I don't see why there going to have 4
lanes. And that probably wouldn't be a problem, but with it
I16.
17
being the only bank on the west side of College drive -up,
18
it's going to be way more than that. Thank you.
19
MS. BELL: Thank you.
20
MR. HOGERTY: Thank you. My name is Dennis
21
Hogerty, and I live in Quail Hollow which is a right off
22
West.Drake Road. I am very much in favor of having a
23
drive -up facility in any neighborhood. If -- most of the
24
time when your accessing a ATM, I just want to remind
25
everybody, that's done it at night,or on the weekends, and
I
I
29
1 than the paper it is printed on, this development cannot be
2 approved. Thank you
3 MR. LINSTEAD: Good evening, my name is
4 Gary Linstead. I live just exactly west of the proposed
5 facility. I agree with the comments that Ben made. I also
6 agree with the fact that it's going to affect our home
7 values, probably, especially mine. I think allowing the
8 drive -up facility to go in is a mistake. If right now we
9 have shopping area that is very residential, very pedestrian
10 friendly the -- stores that will there, they all back the
11 residential area.
12 It divides us from the storefronts. Most of
13 the access is in off -- is in from the -- either Drake or
14 Taft. The -access it's coming in off of Valley Forge or o'ff
15 of Hampshire Road is generally people that live over in that
16 area, and it's very residential. There's a lot of bike and
17 a lot of foot traffic in and out of'there.
18 The first reports of the City was given 600
19 cars a day going into the bank and -- and that's at -peak
20 times, 76 cars an hour. The bank's talking -- they're
21 putting in a four -lane facility. Now they're saying, no,
22 that's not right. There's going to be way, way less than
23 that. Those numbers are wrong. If those numbers are wrong,
24 and the numbers they're currently proposing are correct
25 numbers, they 'can do, this with one lane 'Their numbers say .
I
28
1 Close quotes. Further, the spirit of this plan is one that
2 strives to achieve fair and proper balance among conflicting
3 interest to protect the rights of citizens and to affirm
4 community values as they have been expressed by citizens
5 throughout the planning process.
6 Tonight you are hearing those concerns
7 expressed by the community. Unless I'm mistaken, the only
8 people here in favor of the drive -through bank, are the bank
9 executives, and I assure you none of them are from the
10 neighborhood. "A neighborhood center." These are further
11 quotes from,the plan. "A neighborhood center should be
12 either designed in collaboration with the residents or
13 otherwise be custom designed by it's developer to reinforce
14 the positive identity, character, comfort, and convenience
15 of it's surrounding neighborhood."
16 The bank points out, or will point out that
17 another goal of this City Plan is to reduce vehicle miles
18 traveled. This goal has been addressed by the location of
19 their walk-in facility on the interior of the shopping
20 center. We welcome it. We applaud it. However, in
21 summary, it cannot be more clear. This drive -though bank is
22 automobile oriented.
23 It discourages pedestrian and bicycle access,
24 and it is contrary to.the interest of the residential
25 neighborhood it most affects. If the City Plan means more
26
1 that the bank provided, but it's clear to see that their
2 interest is to have this project go through.
3 It would be the only, and I will repeat, the
4 only drive -up facility west of the College Avenue corridor.
5 It will generate money for them. I think their numbers are
6 unrealistically low. Statistics can be made to say anything
7 you want, I don't have children, I don't walk to the
8 Safeway, generally. So I'm not really concerned about the
9 traffic issues.
10 It's bad enough as it is, but I'm concerned
11 about the devaluation of my property that I have on
12 Hampshire Court, and I would be the first to attack the
13 bank, so to speak, if my property value does go down, and I
14 would be the first to line up and sue them because of this
15 project, for that action. And I would ask that you not
16 approve this project. Thank you.
17 MS. BELL: Please come forward, whoever would
18 like to speak next. I would like to remind the audience,
19 that we've got two podiums, and we can move along a little
20 faster if we use both of them.
21 MR. ROSKEN: My name is Bob Rosken, I'm a
22 resident on Hampshire Court, directly west of the
23 development --.proposed development. In case anyone fails
24 to see -- mention it tonight, I do want to remind you that,
25 one, the City's own planner opposed this development saying
25
1 curve, and when you try to cross that street, either as a
2 pedestrian or in your car, very often, you almost get
3 broadsided or run down. It's a dangerous intersection, just
4 as much as the Drake and Hampshire Road is.
5 Yet, according to the Federal standards that
6 were spoken about last meeting, this area doesn't even have
7 enough traffic to warrant a flashing yellow light even
8 though we have 2900 vehicles a day there. Even though this
9 is a school bus stop corner, which I don't know if that was
10 pointed out last night. Valley Forge and Hampshire Road is
11 definitely a school bus stop.
12 Please do not ruin the only true
13 pedestrian/residential shopping mall in our city. It's
14 another perfect example is how the City has worked
15 successfully in our wonderful city. And if the bank will
16 not address the concerns at all, then I believe we have no
17 choice but to refuse to have the drive -up bank as our
18 neighbor. Thanks.
19 MS. BELL: Okay. Thank you. Next, please.
20 MR. MAEL: Good evening distinguished members
21 of the panel, my name and is William Mael. I live'at 2331
22 Hampshire Court, directly to the west of the proposed
23 project. I would ask tonight that you disapprove or do not
24 allow"this project to go through in its current plan. I
25 think it was very clear and a very admirable presentation
24
1
yellow lights, raised walkways, or re-route the exit up and
2
out of the drive -up. Their idea of improvements was to
3
improve the sidewalk on their side of the street, to improve
4
-- basically to improve access in and out of their walk-up.
5
It does. absolutely nothing to address the homeowners and
6
residents on the west side of Drake.
7
In addition to that, when you stand -- and
8
the very next -- after your last meeting that you had here,
9
you guys continued it, I spoke with Fred, the City Engineer
10
the very next morning. It was just a chance meeting. I
11
watched you guys on TV, and as I was leaving to take my
12
daughter to day care the next morning, I happened to run
13
into him and kind of flagged him down in the lot, and he
14
took the time to speak with me, and I appreciated that. But
15
I addressed some of the concerns that we didn't even talk
16
about last time.
17
And the people who live a little bit further
18
north definitely care about this, even though there may not
19
be that many people right there in the area who have a
20
chance to come down and speak. And my main concern right at
21
the corner of Valley Forge and Hampshire Road. When you
22
look north, you cannot see more than two houses down. This
23
is just the way the City designed the street.
24
When you look at the map up there it looks
25
like a nice gradual curve, but it's actually a very sharp
23
1 Ponds, which is still in the process of being built, was an
2 open field. As you probably know right -- to the south of
3 Drake there, they're building multi -unit apartments that
4 haven't even to begun to be filled yet.
5 I guess my major concern is that all of the
6 studies that the traffic engineers and all these people have
7 done, address the traffic flow. Not one thing was said
8 about what traffic flow is going to be as far as the future.
9 And yes, they say, well -- first they started out with 600
10 cars in and out, meaning 1200 round trip visits. Now, it's
11 down to 300.
12 I thought it was interesting that they showed
13 a bank with deposits of $63 million had only 397 visits down
14 in Loveland. According to that, a bank with 3 million in
15 deposits would have about 20 cars a day, which I would
16 question a even the need for a drive -up if that's actually
17 the way it is. But if I am right, except for the First
i8 National Bank downtown, this is the only drive -up, I believe
19 that is even west of College Avenue, if not the only bank
20 west of College Avenue.
21 So the decisions that you guys make are going
22. to affect the western half of the city for the future to
23 come. My concern is that the bank and the City Engineers
24 did not feel that one single idea of the residents had, was
25 worth instituting. They are not going to put up flashing
22
1 with you, thank you. Okay. We are now ready to open this
2 portion of our discussion to public participation, so if
3 there's anyone in the audience who would like to address the
4 Board on this issue, please come forward.
5 I'd like to remind you, that we have two
6 podiums. I'd also like to find out how many people are
7 here. If you could raise your hand, if you're planning on
8 talking about this specific issue tonight. Okay. Is there
9 anybody here who represents -- are you all speaking on your
10 own behalf, or is there a neighborhood representative?
11 MR. VOSICK: I'm representing several people.
12 I'm the homeowner president for Hampshire Square, which is
13 the very next cul-de-sac to the north, right behind
14 Hampshire Court. It's where Valley Forge branches off.
15 MS. BELL: Okay. Do you have a long
16 presentation?
17 MR. VOSICK: No.
18 MS. BELL: Why don't I go ahead, and everyone
19 can have four minutes, and if we could know at that three
20 minute point.
21 MR. VOSICK: Hi, my name is David Vosick. I
22 live at 2425 Hampshire Square. As I said, that's a
23 cul-de-sac just to the north of the shopping center area and
24 Hampshire Court. I've lived there since October, 1988, and
25 at that time, Hampshire Court was an open field. Hampshire
21
1 bank was going to increase -- they've taken care of the
2 mitigation, they've done some work to take care of that,
3 which is the exit at the west access point and stop sign
4 compliance.
5 We've worked to put in some brick pavers,
6 about 20 width of brick pavers with the very textured feel
.7 to them, so drivers know they are approaching a stop sign.
8 The stop sign will be increased. There will be much more
9 painting on the road, much better markings for the vehicles,
10 so they know they're entering -- that they're coming up on
11 the stop sign. So from a safety standpoint, that should:.;
12 improve safety significantly in the area.
13 We don't feel there is any problem with the
14 traffic in the area, with traffic impact, with the bank
15 impacting traffic, nor do we feel that there is a problem
16 with the bank impacting the safety of the pedestrian or bike
17 safety in the area
18 MS. BELL: There's about 10 minutes left.
19 MR. DRISCOLL: I guess we would field any•
20 questions you all might have.
21 MS. BELL: Are you finished with your
22 presentation?
23 MR..DRISCOLL: Yes, ma'am.
24 MS. BELL: Does the Board have any questions
25 at this time? We will call you back if we need to speak
N
20
1
so we are
not talking about a very large volume here. A
2
majority
of those vehicles then are going to be using this
3
segment.
They're going to be coming in off of Drake,
4
entering,
coming back in and exiting off of Hampshire.
5
Based on the pedestrian study, we had during.
6
the peak
p.m. period -- we had three pedestrians crossing
7
here. Everyone else was -- all the rest of the pedestrians
8
were north
of the facility. And again, during the p.m. peak
9
period we
looked and saw -- there were going to be a total
10
of 36 vehicles
entering, 36 vehicles exiting, for a total of
11
72 trips
during the p.m. period towards the bank.
12
Looking at that, about half of those, again,
13
assuming
are going to be coming in off of Hampshire, the
14
west access
point at Hampshire which gives us 18 vehicles
15
entering,
18 vehicles exiting. And again, assuming.--
16
figuring
most of those vehicles are just going to be coming
17
in, going
and visiting the facility, coming back out and
18
leaving.
19 Your biggest impact is going to be between
20 the west access point, south to Drake Road along Hampshire
21 Road. Fred also asked us to look at the safety issues.
22 Fred addressed those, I'm comfortable with everything that
23 he brought up. Those are pretty much straight from the
24 report, and a number of meetings we've had with him. We've
25 worked with the bank. The biggest problem we saw -- the
18
1 those numbers, again, and verify that that was accurate.
2 Looking at those numbers again, looking at the definition of
3 where those numbers came from, as well as looking at some of
4 the numbers generated by First National Bank for similar
5 facilities, we determined that the 600 vehicles per day that
6 were generated was well higher than what would be actually
7. generated.
8 The numbers here for a bank roughly 20 times
9 the size of the existing facility are showing 400 vehicles
10 per day. Using another relatively conservative estimate
11 going back and using some of the standard deviation
12 abilities that ITE gives us, we came down about to 300
13vehicles per day or 600 trips per day that this bank will
14. generate and we still feel that's a very, very, conservative
15 estimate, that -- especially for at first 3, 4, or 5 years
16 of operation, this bank will have nowhere near that volume
17 of traffic there.
18 Based on that traffic volume, based on the
19 fact -- on the first numbers we ran, we had no problems with
20 traffic. There were going to be no problems that. didn't
21• already exist that were going to be increased, as far as
22 traffic at those intersections in the area. So we did not
23 go back and rerun those numbers, but by cutting the numbers
24 in half, we are not going to -- we didn't feel there was the
25 need at this point to go rerun the level of service
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
17.
nationwide firm.
I'm going to give you a little bit of an
introduction of about who we are, and where we come from.
So I'm not just some schmo off the street. We are a
nationwide organization, approximately 800 employees. We
have offices in Denver and Boulder, Colorado, so we are --
we do this quite often. The colleague and I who worked on
this study, have done well over a hundred of these. He's
done quite a few beyond that nationwide.
We performed two studies for First National
Bank. The first study just focused on the traffic impacts.
In general, the traffic at Drake and Taft Hill at the south
access point, the east access point, and the west access
point', as -well as the intersection of Valley Forge and Taft
Hill Road at the northeast corner of the site. Based on
that information, the time constraints that were given to
us, we used the most conservative traffic volumes that we
could come up with, which was based on instituted
transportation engineers volumes on a walk-up facility. And.
we came up with approximately 600 vehicles per day using
this site.'
Based on the first meeting that was held
about a'month and a half ago, we were contacted, again, by
First National Bank, as well as, by Fred, to look at those
numbers again and verify that that was accurate. Looking at
0
16
1 in -site facility at this location is approximately 4500
2 square feet. The First National Plaza office is 1800 square
3 feet.
4 Just for comparative purpose, to show a
5 little larger office, we have another branch located at the
6 corner of US Highway 34, and 287 in Loveland, we did count
7 on the same day. We had total vehicles through this office
8 of 397 vehicles, and you can see how it goes up to 65 early
9 in the morning. They have different habits in Loveland, I
10 guess, but all the way through. various times during the day
11 from 7:30 to 6:00. So what this tells you about -- in
12 comparison this is a $63 million office, so twice as big as
13 the North College office, and of course, substantially
14 larger than the office over at First National.Plaza.
15 Any questions on those numbers? I might take
16 a minute if you have any questions. If not, at this time,
17 I'd like to invite Greg Krieger from Kim Leah Horn, our
18 traffic consultants.
19 MR. KRIEGER: Madam Chairman, members of the
20 Board. My name is Greg Krieger, a consultant with Kim Leah
21 Horn and Associates out of Denver. We've been the
22 transportation consultants on this project. Bob Nyreck of
23 NWS Studios, the architect asked us in mid -January to come
24 in to talk about the traffic issues as requested by Fred and
25 Erik of the City of Fort Collins. Kim Leah Horn is a
15
1 system, and I thought it might be useful to show you some
2 actual activity. we shared some similar numbers with the
3 neighbors at an earlier meeting. You can see this is our
4 North College office, 1600 North College. I'll need to be
5 sure that I compare these offices. This office has been
6 opened for over 20 years. We've only managed since the
7 first of the year, and we did a study of our activity last
.8 Friday. You can see we started 7:30 in the morning and go
9 until 6:00.
10 I don't know, is that focused, or is it my
11 eyes? I wanted you to be able to see the -- there we go.-'
12 That's not very good is it? Can you all see that? Is it
13 working? Okay. As you can see, on last Friday we had a a»'.
14 total of 200 -- and this is transposed. It's 298, if you',
15 add all the numbers up, it's 298. 298 vehicles went through
16 the three drive -up lanes on the North College office last`
17 Friday.
18 You can see how it goes by hour, one hour we
19 have 17, one hour 27, we had a peak hour from 2:00 to 3:00.
20 With a 3:00 o'clock cutoff of 50. Friday is always a busy
21 day. Sometimes the 1st and the 15th will be busy days. But
22 Fridays would typically always be the busy days. Now the
23 North College office is approximately 28 million in
24 deposits. The First National Bank Plaza office is new.
25 It's 3 million in deposits. We've just gotten started. The.
14
1 safety.
2 The number of significant and constant
3 changes were made to the project as a result of these
4 meetings. The bank has also offered to have a third meeting
5 with the neighbors recently. Two traffic studies have been
6 commissioned by the bank. First study was in compliance
7 with a request by City staff, and the second was a result of
8 the P & Z Board's request at the last hearing in March.
9 A number of suggestions resulted from these
10 studies, and the bank has agreed to implement those items
11 that are on -site as solutions for concern that reasonably
12 could.have resulted from this drive -up facility. These
13 suggestions include the addition of ATM at our walk-up
14 facility at our main banking office within the center which
15 was not initially planned, as well as other improvements to
16 pedestrian walkways all at a substantial increase in cost to
17 the project.
18 We have -- we believe that we have been
19 accommodating and fully cooperative with staff and the
20 neighbors, and have as a result, more than mitigated any
21 concerns about this project. We're going to hear some
22 discussion, I'm sure about traffic. And I want to show you
23 a couple of slides about how much traffic drive -ups
24 potentially can generate.
25 Okay. We have five banking offices in our
13
1 twice adjusted the height. The project has an intimate
2 street and residential site setting, and blends well into
3 the existing center. Heavy planning and landscaping was
4 intensified at the west and south edges of the site to
5 providescreening of the cars and headlights that could be
6 present in the facility. Hopefully quite readily, so we
7 grow the facility. Headlights will be visible only a few
8 hours during winter months.
9 Our normal hours are 7:30 to 6:00 in the
10 drive -up facility, and there could be some times where there
11 are headlights. And we have down some landscaping to try to
12 keep that from being too visible on the street. Two
13 entirely new pedestrian walkways were designed into the
14 project to provide a safe and attractive entry into the
15 center from Hampshire Avenue.
16 These new walkways also provide handicap
17 access and other pedestrian amenities that now, do not
18 exist. Additional canopy, trees, a masonry wall, compatible
19 with the remainder of the center and lighting were added to
20 improve the visual impact and to screen the cars in the
21 drive -up facility from view to passersby and to the
22 neighbors. Two neighborhood meetings were held to describe
23 the project, to listen -.to concerns, and to attempt to
24 alleviate the perception of the neighbors that this Land Use
25 would negatively affect traffic levels and pedestrian
PY
12
1
walkways.
You can see how the traffic can come from various
2
directions
into the drive -through and exit at the various
3
locations.
A schematic of the elevations of the drive -up
4
facility, you can see the four drive -through lanes and how
5
it matches
the rest of the development. This is a sort of a
6
before and
after.
7
The -- this is how the pedestrian walkway
8
that you saw
on both the north and the south side look
9
currently.
This is overlay of kind of what it will look
10
like, and you'll
recall we will do this on both sides, so
11
we'll make
this much more pedestrian friendly. we've got
12
bowlers for
lighting the trees, and you can see we have the
13
pavers here
to create a safe and more aesthetically pleasing
14
environment,
and as I say, the drawing doesn't show it, we
15
will do the
same thing on the other side.
16
This is a view of how the site looks
17
currently,
and then superimposed is how it will look with
18
landscaping
on here along the side. Here's the canopy where
19
the drive -up units are, gives you some sense of what it will
20
look like.
I thought we'd take a minute to discuss the
21
chronology
of the project to show our spirit of cooperation
22
we have in
the design process. And you have in your
23
packages a
tab called "chronology."
24
During this process, we've relocated the
25
facility on
the side. we've eliminated a bypass lane, and
11
1 to details, including how this project is designed, and if
2 we're alert to and respond to any concerns of those
3 involved, we'll have a successful project. We believe we
4 have exceeded the requirements of the process.
5 This project is certainly within the scope
6 and spirit of what the City has attempted to direct in the
7 execution of Land Use policies under the Land Development
8 Guidance System. The drive -up facility is a good project
9 and a good use. Over the years, the City has encouraged
10 this kind of neighborhood development that increases
i
11 convenience both to vehicle and pedestrians, and also
12 reduces vehicle miles traveled. We've got a couple of
13 slides. We'll start with this first one. I'll see if I can
14 handle the.logistics here. Oh, there's your big stick,
15 Steve.
16 As Steve and Fred described the project, we
17 have developed a site, that I think you can see from the
18 renderings, is aesthetically pleasing and very functional.
19 We have a substantial landscaping, we have a serpentine wall
20 through here and heavy berming -- and that will act as a
21 shield both to cars as they're in the facility, as well as*
22 the potential that sometimes during the year, you might have
23 headlights and all this berming -- and that will help that.
24 One of the major improvements that we've
25 made, and I'll show you in a minute, are these pedestrian
10
1 Our plan is to provide a full -service
2 financial center in the neighborhood, which includes a
3 drive -up facility. Our surveys and studies of the market
4 indicate a preference by our existing customer base for both
5 drive -up and walk-up banking transactions.
6 We believe that this development is a higher
7 and better use of the land in the shopping center. At this
8 time, the land is an underutilized asphalt parking lot. As
9 you will see from the traffic studies we have provided, it's
10 estimated that the number of vehicle miles traveled both in
11 the southwest quadrant and throughout the city, will be
12 reduced substantially with this drive -up facility.
13 The estimates of the traffic engineers are a
14 potential reduction of.VMT annually in Fort Collins of over
15 400,000 miles. Our traffic engineer, Kim Leah Horn; who we
16 will introduce in a minute, will explain to you in detail
17 how these reductions were derived from their studies, and
18 you have that information in your package. Once we made the
19 decision to proceed with this project, our commitment
20 throughout this process has not only to meet the
21 expectations, but to exceed them.
22 Our hope and goal is to be better than good
23 neighbors, to meet the needs of our existing customers in
24 southwest Fort Collins, and to attract new clients to the
25 bank. We believe, that in the long run, if we pay attention
9
j 1
Chair, members of the Board. I'm Mark Driscoll with the
2
First National Bank. Our presentation tonight will be
I
3
centered primarily on this package that I think you all
t
4
received earlier, and I'll give it to Steve to enter it as
5
part of the record. I don't know if I have to do that
6
officially, but now we have.
7
The package has information on the -- it has
8
traffic studies, two different traffic studies that have
9
been commissioned. We have renderings of the project.
10
Couple of -- one which you've seen, and we'll cover here in
11
just a minute on some schematic, on elevations, and those;
12
kind of things -- description of the project -- by way of"
13
opening remarks.
14
First National Bank began searching the west
15
side of Fort Collins for a branch location early in 1996.
16
Our plan was to have a facility open by January or February
17
of this year. The primary bank and office and walk-up
18
facility at First National Bank Plaza was opened in February
19
of this year.
20
The business plan we created is to develop a
21
neighborhood banking center in southwest Fort Collins. This
22
quadrant of the city has grown significantly over the last
23
several years, and is underserved by local financial
24
institutions. The businesses and residents of this part of
25
Fort Collins drive many miles for banking services.
8
1 ramps at both the south and the north location.
2 They're planning on installing a pedestrian
3 crosswalk to cross the drive approach and also doing a
4 treatment with some brick pavers and some additional payment
5 markings here to improve what we did identify as a problem,
6 was that folks were doing a slow roll through the stop sign
7 to access on to Hampshire Road.
8 There is an undersized stop sign at the time
9 for this site, and with this type of a treatment at the
10 intersection identifying the stopping area, and increasing
11 the size of stop sign, we feel that that will improve the
12 compliance to the regulatory stop. These were the
13 pedestrian_ improvements that I referred to, pedestrian
14 sidewalks and the brick paver -type treatments across the
15 drive asles on both the bank site, as well asnorth side
16 which will give a symmetrical view as you approach into the
17 center.
18 And I think aesthetically it will be a
19 improvement as well as the pedestrian accessibility will be
20 an improvement
21 MS. BELL: Are there other questions by Board
22 members at this time? Okay. Let's go ahead and have the
23 applicant's presentation, please. It's customary to give
24 the applicant 30 minutes -- a maximum of 30 minutes.
25 MR. DRISCOLL: Okay. Thank you. Madam
7
1 adequate gaps for pedestrians to cross the roadway safely.
2 Handicap accessibility to the site was also an issue.
3 Kathleen Rivas from our Transportation
4 Planning Department and I, went out and did a site study of
5 the vicinity to look at handicap accessibility to. the
6 center. There are handicap ramps at the pedestrian crossing
7 at Hampshire and Valley Forge, and a sidewalk that
8 accommodates pedestrians all the way to the front of the
9 building and back.
10 There are handicap ramps on both corners here
11 and handicap ramps on this access point here, but with the
12 sidewalk facilities that go into the site are not handicap
13 accessible with the proposed development that First National -_
14 Bank is planning. They will be improving the pedestrian-.,;
15 access from the west side of the site into the shopping
16 center, which I think will address some of the pedestrian/
17 handicap issues that were brought up at our last Planning
18 and Zoning Board meeting. And, if there's any questions?
19 MS. BELL: When you say improving,
20 you mean improving them for -- to make them accessible?
21 MR.,JONES: Yes, ma'am. There are some brick
22 paver -type of.treatments across the drive asles and --
23 that's not focused real well, is it? This particular
24 entrance right here is directly adjacent to Hampshire Court,
25 and they're planning on improving the pedestrian/wheelchair
C
1
street without a car passing their path. At that time, the
2
City staff recognized that -- that there was no accident
3
that -- that accidents that had occurred on Hampshire Road
4
in this vicinity, although there was one accident that
5
occurred between a bike and a vehicle considerably north of
6
the site and that happened in 1996.
7
I don't have the specifics whether the
'
8
bicycle was at fault or whether the vehicle was at fault,
i
1 9
but there was an accident in that location. The speeds were
10
also measured. Speeds of vehicles were measured along this
11
corridor of the road.as well.as north of the site. And the
12
speeds were a little high for a residential collector
13
street.
14
They were in line with most other collector
15
streets in the City of Fort Collins. The speeds north of
16
the side were a little higher. We had a 35 mile.per hour
17
85th percentile of the speed in the northern portion of
18
Hampshire Road. City staff met with'the neighborhood,
19
again, to give them the information that we had gathered
20
through speed studies, through a multi -way stop warrant
21
study that was performed on at the intersection of Hampshire
22
and Valley Forge, through pedestrian counts and gap studies.
23
And it was determined, that currently there
24
is 2900 cars a day on Hampshire Road which are well within
25
the standards for a collector roadway, and that.were
5
1 jaywalking or mid -block crossing. And then, also, at the
2 intersection of Hampshire and Valley Forge. We did a couple
3 of studies. We looked at it in a morning peak when the
4 elementary school kids were catching the bus, when the
5 junior high kids were going to junior high.
6 Also, in the p.m. peak on an average weekday,
7 and also looked at it on a Saturday condition also. The
8 study -- the formal study was completed in a p.m. peak on
91 the Monday, and then, also again, on a Tuesday of two
10 consecutive days of the week. The heaviest crossing area
11 was right here, which had 17 pedestrians cross in a one hour
12 period between 4:30 and 5:30. In that same time period,
13 there were 71 gaps that were measured in excess that would
14 be a safe gap to cross the street in a safe condition.
15 A safer and adequate gap in. traffic would be
16 the time that it would take a pedestrian to walk across the
17 street, based upon 3.5 five feet per second, and a reaction
18 time to stop, observe the traffic to make a determination
19 whether it's safe to cross and then proceed to cross. It
20 was determined that'about 17.9 seconds was needed for an
21 adequate gap in traffic, and that's where we came up
22 with the 71 vehicle gaps.
23 The largest gap that was observed was 57.
24 seconds at p.m. peak. A 57 second gap on a collector street
25 is quite adequate to handle several people crossing the
4
1
concerned about safety.
2
Whenever we review a project, safety is a
3
judgment based upon accident experience and local and
4
national criteria. We did perform a number of studies in
5
the vicinity of the site. This is West Drake Road,
6
Hampshire Road which is a collector street goes all the way
7
up to Prospect Road. Valley Forge is also a collector which
8
ties into Village West.
9
There were some issues on pedestrian safety
10
as they came down the sidewalk and crossed in a variety of
11
places. At the intersection where they're stop controlled
12
at Hampshire and Drake Road. There is no stop control at
13
Hampshire Court, except for Hampshire. Court. Also the
14
access point on to Hampshire Road has stop control. Valley
15
Forge currently has stop control on the side street. There
16
is no stop control for north and south.
17
There is a pedestrian marked crosswalk and
18
signed crosswalk for pedestrians in this location. We did a
19
variety of studies. We looked at the vehicle gaps, what the
20
distance between when a vehicle left, and the next vehicle
21
arrived, and then measured the amount of time between the
22
vehicles. We did a pedestrian study in several locations.
23
One at the stop control, one on the south
24
side of Hampshire Court, one on the north side of Hampshire
25
Court, one in this area through here where there was some
I
3
1 They are proposing to maintain 28 parking spaces out of the
2 71 that currently exist.
3 The shopping center is directly to the east
4 of the site. You have single family residential to the west
5 and to the north of this site. As you stated, this item was
6 first heard on the loth of March, and at that time, there
7 were concerns expressed about the potential pedestrian and
8 vehicular interface as pedestrians, bicyclists, attempt to
9 cross Hampshire Road to get to the shopping center.
10 And at that time, I'm reading a memo that is
11 in your packet. The Board did continue this item to
12 tonight's meeting with direction for City staff to work with
13 the neighborhood to assess potential current problems,
14 identify the impacts that the proposed drive-up•banking
15 facility would have on bicycle, pedestrian safety.'
16 Fred Jones, of our traffic engineering
17 department, has since conducted a study or studies." And, at
18 this, time, I'm going to turn it over to Fred to give you a
19 presentation prior to the applicants making their
20 presentation.
21 MR. JONES: Good evening, Madam Chair,
22 members of the Board. My name is Fred Jones, City of Fort
23 Collins Traffic Engineering Department. When we last heard
24 this item, there were several neighbors that were concerned
25 about pedestrian and bicycle safety, and we are also
2
1 MS. BELL: Okay. We are now ready to move on
2 to Item No. 7, Drake Crossing Shopping Center PUD, the First
3 National Bank drive -up facility, amended final. Let's begin
4 with a brief staff report, and if you can maybe focus on
5 some of what we sent -- I believe this item was sent back as
6 a continuance, so perhaps, Steve, you can focus on what some
7 of those issues were previously.
8 MR. OLT: You're absolutely correct,
9 Chairperson Bell. This again is a -- a request for the --
10 for the First National Bank drive -up facility. It is in the
11 -- what is actually now called the First National Bank
12 Plaza, previously known as the Drake Crossing Center PUD.
13 This is at the -- the site itself is at the
14 northeast corner of West Drake Road, and Hampshire Road in
15 this location. This is South Taft Hill Road here. The
16 proposal is for a drive -through bank, a four -lane facility.
17 There would be one small building in this location, the
18 southern portion of the site. Then there would be a four
19 drive -through lanes for interface with the bank employees in
20 the building for their transactions.
21 In this location, the outside lane would be a
22 combination ATM and customer service lane,.I think,
23 primarily designed as customer service or -- as ATM, I'm
24 sorry, to the east then of the bank itself is within the
25 existing parking lot because this whole site does exist.
MEETING BEFORE THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION
Held Monday, April 28, 1997
At Fort Collins City Council Chambers
300 West Laporte Avenue
Fort Collins, Colorado
Concerning Drake Crossing Shopping Center PUD, First National Bank Drive -up Facility
Amended Final
Members present:
Gwen Bell, Chairman
Jerry Gavaldon
Bob Davidson
Glen Colton
Karen Weitkunat
For the City:
Steve Olt, City Planner
Fred Jones, City Engineer
34
1 of being near it, there are some inconveniences.
2 MS. BELL: Next.
3 MS. ACKERSON: My name is Beth Ackerson, and
4 I want to say, first of all, that I appreciate your
5 attention to our concerns about this. I would like to
6 express my strong opposition to the proposed drive -through
7 banking facility at Drake and Hampshire. I feel this is a
8 most inappropriate location for such a facility. The First
9 National Bank Plaza, formerly Drake Crossing Shopping
10 Center, is designed as a neighborhood center. And First
11 National Bank has located a new branch internal to the
12 center, which I find will really benefit the area, we all do
13 actually.
14 I've banked with First Interstate for about
15 15 years. A neighborhood center though is designed to serve
16 the neighborhood and the bank internal to the center serves
17 the neighborhood well. My husband and I and some of our
18 neighbors canvassed the area. To the south we have
19 Hampshire Pond, which isn't completed yet, they're putting
20 some multi -family homes in there, and to the north over in
21 Hampshire Court and some to the west.
22 And while.doing that,.we found a great
23 majority were opposed to the drive -through facility, and
24 mostly due to valid traffic and safety concerns. And we did
25 an informal -type of petition that I have to submit to you
37
1 coalition of environmentally and community organizations
2 that want more transportation safety money devoted to
3 protecting pedestrians, according to figures compiled by the
4 FBI and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration,
5 strangers committed an approximate 3500 homicides with guns
6 during 1995 while vehicle crashes killed some 5600
7 pedestrians. I know these are all just statistics, but not
8 surprisingly it found that areas which developed around the
9 car as the main means of transportation are the least safe
10 for walkers, even if relatively few people actually walk or
11 jog.
12 And in the remaining time that I have, I also
13 wanted to share a letter from the couple that's been
14 involved in the entire process, however, there out of state
15 at this point. May I do that? They left it with me. It`.
16 says, "Members of the Planning and Zoning Board, having been
17 personally present during this process, but unable to attend
18 this 'current meeting, we appreciate the opportunity to have
19 our written comments made a part of the record.
20 The issue before the Board tonight goes
21 beyond the most obvious concern that's been presented. It's
22 not•only about a appropriateness, safety, and the air
23 quality issues, but the crux of the issue is -the City of
24 Fort Collins seriously -committed to trying to reduce our
25 growing dependence on the automobile as our primary mode of
POP
1 calculations and waste any more time with that.
2 Specifically, Fred asked us to look at some
3 of the safety issues on the site. Let me show you real
4 quick, the numbers we came up with. These are -- these
5 numbers are in the report. What we are showing
6 here is along -- we focused mainly on Hampshire Road that
7 seems to be where the biggest problem was, where the most
8 discussion was being held. With this being the west access
9 point, this is not being drawn anywhere near to scale, but
10 just a schematic showing the general area of Drake and
11 Hampshire Road.
12 The increase in volumes in the morning
13 period, I think, was approximately 18 vehicles during the
14 peak hour.in the morning, with majority of the vehicles --
15 with about half of those vehicles estimating entering off "of
16 Hampshire Road and existing back onto Hampshire Road. The
17 rest of the vehicles entering the site or visiting the bank
18 during the morning period, we figured or assumed would come
19 through being linked to used trips throughout the rest of
20 the shopping center.
21 So what we did, is looked back. About half
22 of those trips -- about 9 trips in the morning hour period,
23 are going to be using -- 9 vehicles are going to enter
24 through this -- through the west access point off of
25 Hampshire Road in the morning 9 vehicles are going to exit,