HomeMy WebLinkAbout2016CV1308 - FTN - FORT COLLINS V. CITY OF FORT COLLINS - 019B - EX B - 10-20-15 CITY COUNCIL EXCERPT1
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FORT COLLINS CITY COUNCIL MEETING
(Excerpt)
October 20, 2015
Agenda Item 18
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(There were proceedings had, not
transcribed herein.)
MAYOR TROXELL: This brings us to our
next item on the agenda, No. 18, which is the first
reading of Ordinance No. 834, making certain amendments
to the Section 17-142 of the Code of the City of Fort
Collins related to public nudity.
There are two options: 1 and 2. Is
there a presentation?
MR. ATTEBERRY: Yes. Thank you, Mayor.
There's a brief presentation. Tyler Marr from the
City's Manager's office is going to kick this off.
Tyler?
MR. MARR: Great. Thanks, Darin. Good
evening, Mayor, members of Council. It's a real
privilege to be able to speak to you tonight on this
somewhat controversial issue of updating the public
nudity code.
I want to start with a little bit of
background, specifically, about why we're here.
The reason this is being brought up
tonight is because a handful of citizens have been
expressing concern for several months now about the
gender equality of our existing public indecency
ordinance.
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After hearing these concerns and meeting
with the citizens, Council requested staff bring forth
new options to update the code. And that's what we
have here for you tonight is two options to update the
City Code.
The first is what we're calling the
enhanced status quo. It largely leaves policy the
same. Does not allow for women to be topless, but
provides for a couple of exceptions, which I'll touch
on here in a -- just a little bit.
The second option would be a change in
policy, and it would allow females to be topless in
Fort Collins.
We did gather public input on this,
highlighted by an online public opinion poll that ran
for a full week, from October 5th
through 12th
.
A little bit more about that public
input process. Council received input from both the
Women's Commission and the Human Relations Commission.
It's worth noting that both of those commissions are
supporting the second option or the change in policy.
Again, we -- we had the online poll that
ran for a week. It generated close to 9,000 responses.
6,800 responses were unique IP addresses. And what
this means is there were 2,000 addresses that people
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took the survey from the same device, and so I pulled
those out. And the results, you'll see in just a
second.
And it's -- this is worth noting. This
is in addition to the numerous phone calls and emails
Council has received.
So here are the results from the survey.
These are a little different than what was in your
packet, Council. The -- the results in your packet
included all the survey responses, and like I
mentioned, these pulled out the -- the duplicate IP
addresses.
You'll notice that the results have not
changed much. It's still about a 60/40 split, with
60 percent supporting the current policy, with that
exception, which, again, I'll get to in just a second;
and then 40 percent supporting the change in policy,
allowing women to be topless in public.
We also allowed citizens to comment on
the ordinance changes, and I grouped these into four
general themes. There were a lot of comments
generated.
One common theme was concerns about
family values and modesty if toplessness is allowed
within the city, including a couple -- a handful that
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pondered their ability to stay in Fort Collins if such
an ordinance were passed.
There were several people who posited
what they thought was a legitimate third option of
having men forced to keep their shirts on.
Those in support of the change
oftentimes cited getting with the times. The 21st
century doesn't have a place for discrimination. That
sort of theme.
And then there were also a fair number
that questioned the value of looking at this -- looking
at this issue at all.
So, as we move into the options, there's
some -- there's a lot of similarities between these two
options and some differences. I'm going to start with
the similarities.
Both options make exceptions from the
code for young children, performance venues, changing
areas, and those undergoing medical emergencies.
And we are changing in either option the
code language that currently reads as "public
indecency" to read as "public nudity" instead.
So we move into the first option, once
again, the enhanced status quo. So this keeps it
illegal for females to be topless in public, but it
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does add those exceptions I just mentioned, in addition
an exception for breast-feeding mothers.
And the second option would allow
females to be topless in the city. It does this by
specifically outlining what is prohibited, and that's
all nudity below the waist, and it does remove the code
provision that pertains to female breasts.
So I'm just going to reiterate one more
time: Option 1 keeps the policy the same, but does not
allow for females to be topless in public. The second
option would change policy to allow females to be
topless in public.
And with that, Council, I'll turn it
back to you. I'm happy to answer any questions.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, Tyler. I
appreciate the presentation. With that, I think we
have a few people who would like to speak tonight.
May I just remind you that -- to be
brief and -- and -- and to, you know, be courteous
of -- of everyone else and refrain from public
outbursts, if you would. And we're just looking for
a -- a conversation and get your feedback with regards
to this.
So, with that, could I see a show of
hands of how many people would like to speak to Council
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tonight? Please raise your hand.
Okay. With that, I will allow 2 minutes
per speaker and with that, would you please come
forward and form two lines and -- come forward and --
unless you have trouble standing for a long period of
time, you -- ask for you to come forward and -- and be
ready to speak.
Okay. And as we've done before, please
state your name and general address, and you'll have 2
minutes. When you see the yellow, you'll have 30
seconds left and red, you'll be completed. Thank you.
Please go ahead.
MS. PETERS: Okay. Thank you. My name
is Katie Peters. I'm from 1104 Fairfield Avenue. And
I want to -- thank you to the Council for your
leadership and your service and your sacrifice. And
also, thank you to the proponents of this ordinance for
bringing it to our attention so that we can evaluate
what really matters to us.
And it is precisely the value of the
empowerment of women that brings me here tonight. It's
entirely essential, Councilwoman Stephens, that women
continue to be empowered to lead and to influence and
give voice in our community.
However, I believe that the passing of
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this ordinance or the changing of this policy does not
lead us to that goal. I believe that it moves us
backwards.
I want to suggest that this ordinance or
the changing to the policy highlights an idea of
sameness rather than promoting the objective of
equality.
Allowing women to dress or undress in
the same fashion as men does not promote equality, but
I believe it will, rather, create a public forum and
community acceptance for the objectification of women.
I believe that this is a lack of focus
on more important goals, like promoting income
equality, career and leadership opportunity, and
maternity privileges for women who are working.
I believe that the exposure of breasts
to enhance respect and opportunity will not only miss
the mark, but will interrupt and abruptly break
momentum toward gender parity.
Councilwomen -- Councilwoman, please
reflect on how far we have come in the empowerment of
women and please consider that this move would -- it
would move us, but it will move us backwards.
And Councilmen, could you take yourself
back to being 12, 15, 18, 25, and ask yourself honestly
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this question: If changing this -- this language and
this ordinance would cause you to more respect the
women in our community. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
Please -- please, I ask that you refrain
from showing a response at the end of a speaker. It
will speed things along and also, it helps to allow for
a free exchange of ideas, so if you would just refrain
from that from here on. Thank you. Next, please.
MR. PROUTY: Brian Prouty, Larimer
County, just outside of Wellington.
I think you should reject this proposal.
In the first place, I expect you to hear from all the
downtown businesses because this would certainly
suppress business in Fort Collins, as people would
choose to take their business elsewhere.
Second, you spent a lot of money on
enhancing the image of the City, putting trees and
roads and boulevards, and Fort Collins has a very nice
atmosphere because of it. And this ordinance would
certainly undo a lot of that, cause a lot of that money
to go to waste by creating -- by degrading the
atmosphere in Fort Collins.
I think the best option is actually
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option 0, to change nothing. Certainly, incidental
exposure is a part of life in breast-feeding, but the
general expectation of remaining covered, I think most
women would want to remain in place. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next?
MR. STOCKTON: Yes. My name is Ray
Stockton, and I live here in Fort Collins. Thanks for
the opportunity.
I'm a husband and a father of a daughter
and four boys. And I've always taught them to respect
and honor women. And my daughter, I definitely want
her to have self-respect and -- and honor the
attributes that God has given to her.
But I don't know how to counsel children
in the future if women don't have any self-respect.
And I just question -- I mean, a handful of women who
have this opinion over the overwhelming majority that
live here in Fort Collins, I don't think should dictate
to the overwhelming population, you know, what is right
and what is wrong.
So I -- I don't know. I think you
should reject both, as well. I think he -- he spoke it
very well as -- as we go forward, you know, I -- I
forget his name, but he mentioned something about, you
know, we're in the 21st
century. Oh, my goodness.
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You know, and if anything, we should be smarter now
than we were before.
You know, I just think that as we go
forward, we should show a little intelligence in this
area of life. So thanks for the opportunity.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MS. PROUTY: Good evening. My name is
Pam Prouty. I live in rural Larimer County near
Wellington. And my husband and I have a date night
every Friday night and, typically, what we do is walk
around Old Town and get dinner, winter or summer. And
if this ordinance is passed, we will be driving to
Loveland instead. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. SHAW: Hi. My name is Trevor Shaw.
I live on the corner of Stover and Horsetooth. I sent
you guys an email and I was just going to read it for
public record, and just in case you guys didn't have a
chance to read it.
As a graduate student in chemistry at
CSU, I look at things -- I need evidence and reason
and -- to support and then I try to develop my opinion
or make -- draw conclusions rationally.
I'm a morally -- I'm sorry. Not
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morally. Reasonably -- rationally opposed to allowing
females to walk around topless for several reasons.
Scientifically, women's breasts were
developed to signal men that they were fertile and
ready for sex. Female areola release pheromones that
attract males, signaling sex.
Male nipples are as important to the
body as an appendix, simply being left-over DNA in an
embryo before sex is even determined in utero.
Therefore, we cannot say that male and
female chests are equal.
Further, Dr. Carolyn Ross -- according
to Carolyn Ross, there are many detrimental effects on
a youth's early exposure to nudity and pornography,
images leave a lasting impression, as we all know, and
there are undesirable consequences.
Studies have shown that children exposed
to such images often engage in early and high-risk sex.
Also, 90 percent of men who identify as sex addicts
report pornography and nudity exposure at an early age
as a key factor; not to mention that increasing
exposure tends to lead to increased -- tends to
increase violent thoughts and acts against women.
I just, again, would like to emphasize
the point that a male's chest is completely different
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than a female's chest. A female's chest is a
reproductive sex organ that was developed to let males
know they were ready for sex.
In my opinion, women that choose to go
topless would place themselves in unnecessary danger to
unwanted sexual advances or assaults. Many women
acknowledge the fact that they hate when they're
whistled at or cat called. I don't believe this would
make it any better.
And finally, I'd just -- it goes to the
presentation of the pie chart that 60 percent of the
people voted against this.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next. Please.
MS. MYERS: My name -- my name is Barb
Myers, and my husband and I have lived here in Fort
Collins for 30 years. We live at 816 Brookedge Drive.
As you, the City Council, consider the
question of allowing women to go topless in public, you
as leaders and Fort Collins as a community really
stands at a crossroads. The opportunity to raise the
level of respect for all men, women, and children who
call this city home or visit really is in question.
We have the privilege of recognizing and
saying out loud that men and women are vastly different
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in many different ways, and what behaviors we approve
through our laws or ordinances and what we declare
good, acceptable, and reasonable will have impact.
The City Council, as a ruling body, has
the power to make legal those specific behaviors, but,
unfortunately, you, as a Council, don't have the
ability to make it beneficial.
You have the heavy responsibility to set
a course for the people of this community and we will
absorb the consequences resulting from the decisions.
Many of those results will be unseen, but, yet, they
are very real.
And to any women who are wanting to go
topless in public, I'd just share my thoughts. You're
beautiful. God made you that way and you do have the
power to sway men, what their minds think, and cause
sexual responses in their body by what you choose to
uncover and display publicly.
You have more to contribute to the men,
women, and children of our community than offering an
unwanted street pop-up and I believe you believe to
think more highly of your bodies and equality with men
than simply to downgrade it to walking around shirtless
just because men can.
For all of us in this community, we live
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at a time when clear thinking is desperately needed and
we must not merely look out for our own interests, but
also the interests of others. We can destroy ourselves
because we lack the knowledge and understanding that
supports sound reason and leads to good decisions.
Nudity will not support the fabric of
our community and it does -- certainly does not support
the lifestyle of families who choose to instill the
value of modesty.
If Fort Collins is seeking to strengthen
families and promote respect for men and women of every
age, every stage, the answer is a very simple no.
Common sense is actually quite easy to
recognize and in this case, it will be wearing a shirt.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Please.
MS. MYERS: Thank you so much.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MS. SEMMENS: Hello. My name is Kristin
Semmens. I'm a Fort Collins resident. I did send an
email yesterday, but I had some additional thoughts
that I wanted to share.
And it's actually regarding the
39 percent that voted yes, and these are my thoughts.
I took my own little opinion poll last night when we
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went out to dinner -- my husband and I -- to
Coopersmiths. There was a table of four young people,
I assume college age sitting there, so I was bold and I
said, What do you guys think about this potential
change in our City ordinance.
And it was interesting because one of
the young men immediately said, Oh, I'm for it, but his
reasons were certainly not for equality between men and
women. They were because he would enjoy the experience
of being able to view women's breasts in public.
And then he -- he also said, Oh, but it
won't pass. So that leads me to believe that he would
have been one of the 39 percent that would have voted
yes, believing that it is not actually something that
legitimately would take place.
So that was the first thought I had.
And then, secondly, the response from
all four people was regarding having children. I
assume none of them had children. And they all stated
that if they had children, they would not want this to
pass.
So I'm curious about what percentage of
the 30 -- what the demographic was of the 39 percent
and how many of those people, in five or ten years,
would change their vote from yes to no.
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And I would appreciate your
consideration of that and also appreciate your work for
our city. We love living here. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. BEARDON: My name is Roy Beardon. I
live at 5882 Seldovia Road.
I'll quote directly from the CDOT safety
website. It says of 203,827 motorists involved in a
crash in Colorado, an estimated 24.4 percent were
attributed to distracted drivers. Furthermore -- this
is serious, folks. Furthermore, teenage drivers are
more likely than any other age group to be involved in
fatal distracted driving crashes.
Texting while driving is illegal.
Texting takes the eyes off the road for an average of
4.6 seconds. I wonder how long gawking and leering
will take a young man's eyes off the road. I don't
want to find that out. And I don't want to be in a
crosswalk or on a sidewalk when a topless woman is
walking by and when a teenage driver is going by.
Serious stuff.
This is not a question of equality.
It's a question of exhibitionism. Men's and women's
breasts are different and the law treats them
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differently. If a man touched a topless woman's
nipple, she would scream sexual assault and the man
would be labeled a sex offender and his life would be
ruined.
Though if a woman touched a topless
man's nipple and he ran to the police, they'd probably
laugh him out of town.
Okay. So the -- there's a difference
here, folks. A big difference.
And equality is a state of quality or a
quality of being equal in quantity, value, and ability.
Well, a woman is far, far ahead of men
in the area of breasts, so the only way to get equality
would be what? We grow breasts or they lose theirs?
I mean, there is no equality. There
cannot be equality.
And the last thing I want to say is my
late wife, Ella, she told me one time, she said, Buddy,
I don't want to give up any of my rights to be equal
with you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next,
please.
MR. DANIEL: Yeah. Hello, Council. I'm
Chet Daniel, 301 South Loomis Avenue. I'm speaking
from the viewpoint of a husband and dad. A noble life.
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A faithful life. Being faithful in marriage and in
every relationship is the most honorable objective of
mankind. My opinion.
And yet, as a man, it is clear as day
evident to me that my flesh, my will is weak and
vulnerable in the face of sexual temptation, even as an
over-the-hill 77-year-old guy. The faithfulness of a
husband to his one and only woman is difficult enough
to nurture and maintain with all the presently existing
sexual temptations. God has made woman a beautiful
creature. She already has the power to inflame a man
without exposing her torso, which would create a huge
distraction for husbands.
Marriages, family units are in enough
danger already because of males distracted from their
responsibilities and commitments to give all their
affections to their wives and mothers of their
children.
A noble life, a faithful life, the most
honorable objective. Let's not make it more difficult.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MS. CROFT: Hi. My name is Roberta
Croft. I live at 4868 Twin Peaks Circle. The proposed
change to the ordinance concerning nudity is not about
equality. As the first speaker said, equality is not
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sameness. And if it really comes down to that, I'd
rather have the men wear shirts.
It's not about breast-feeding. Very few
people object to that.
In the long run, it's about how we are
able to enjoy our community. If this passes, I know my
family will not be able to enjoy Fort Collins. I don't
want to have my husband, my children, my grandchildren,
my guests, or myself to have to walk by a topless
woman. That would infringe on my right to enjoy my
community.
In the past, the Supreme Court has ruled
that a community can set standards for decency in the
community.
I don't think the human body is
shameful, but I think it is private and I think it is
something to enjoy privately and on your own.
Let's get down to brass tacks. Are
there any business owners here who think they're not
going to lose business if this passes?
I know that my family will go elsewhere
for grocery shopping, for movies, for restaurants, for
whatever we can. There is very little here in Fort
Collins that I can't get somewhere else. And we will
go somewhere else. Any business knows if you don't
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have customers, you don't have a business.
I've heard the argument that Boulder has
passed it. Well, guess what? I don't live in Boulder.
I don't want to live in Boulder. I avoid Boulder.
Okay?
MAYOR TROXELL: Please.
MS. CROFT: It's the old saying if
everyone else jumps off a cliff, would you? Listen to
your mom from however many years ago she said that.
So let's keep Fort Collins classy and
vote no.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MS. MERKLEY: Hi. My name is Lori
Merkley -- I'm sorry -- and I come to you from the
perspective of a teacher.
I want to thank you, first of all, for
allowing us to have this voice. It lets you know that
you value your community, as well as the young lady who
came forward.
And I want to say first that I am
against this proposal and I don't think we should
change what we already have, but I think what we're
missing is what this issue is really about and that is
the value of a human being. Regardless of their sex,
regardless if they're religious, regardless of where
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they come from and they're homeless or whether they're
in a wealthy neighborhood, the fact is that a person is
valuable by who they are, not by what they wear or
don't wear.
And the last thing I want to be doing is
spending my days in my classroom explaining to my
third-graders how to respect a woman by not looking at
her, but by judging her by her character, by judging
her by what she does in her community to make it
better.
So I would encourage those young ladies
that feel like they're not equal, this is where you can
show you're equal. Become one of the members here and
stand up for the rights of the women that are around
you. Fight for those that are downtrodden. Fight for
the homeless that need a place to stay.
That is what I want to teach my
students. That is what I teach my students every
single moment. In -- in the words of our founding
fathers, we are created equal, endowed with indelible
rights that God has given us. That is because we're
all human beings and in his eyes, we're all valuable.
Thank you for listening.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. HARRISON: Thank you, City Council.
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My name is David Harrison. I've grown up in Fort
Collins. I have three young sons.
And America is a place of great freedom.
We have the freedom of speech. We have the freedom to
peaceably assemble. We even have the freedom to go
topless in our homes and up in the forest or other
places.
What happens when freedom impedes upon
other freedoms or destroys them? We limit those
freedoms.
The freedom of speech is limited when it
defames or becomes hate speech. The freedom of
assembly is limited when it becomes violent. And
things like that.
So -- so people will say I want my
freedom, but if that impedes or destroys other
freedoms, like my family's freedom to go into Old Town
or to participate in various events, that's destroying
our freedom, as well. And that's why we limit freedoms
in this country.
Even something as -- as crazy as the
freedom to murder, we limit that because that destroys
the freedom of life. So that's what this, I think, is
about.
Also, there's a great danger. We have
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the internet, we have cellphones. Businesses, schools
have been talked about, but someone taking a photograph
of someone topless and posting that to the internet,
that could destroy that young woman's chances in
business, in making money in her future.
So this is -- this is going to go public
more than you even realize, and this can hurt a woman,
maybe a young college woman who's just doing this on a
fling or a dare and someone takes a picture and it goes
viral on the internet.
That can be very dangerous. And we
limit that now, so how is that going to affect our
city?
Thank you, very much for your time.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. GILLILAND: My name is Brad
Gilliland. I'm a citizen here in Fort Collins who
loves our city. I'm grateful to our City Manager, to
our City Council, and to our Mayor for the sacrifice
and the time that you make to -- that you contribute to
make Fort Collins a great city.
And what Fort Collins is today, in my
opinion, is in jeopardy of being something very
different tomorrow. I long for this city to progress
in the areas of education, development, business, and
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the arts, but there is some progress that is not
progress. It's detrimental to the growth and health
that we all want for our city.
Here's why I believe that changing the
ordinance to allow for women to be topless is a
movement in the wrong direction. One, fundamentally,
the change implies that we're all -- we're trying to
make men and women the same. While men and women are
most certainly equal, they are uniquely distinct. This
is important to mention because the issue at hand is
not an equality issue.
Two, I believe this change would not
lead to the liberation of women, but, rather, lead to
the degradation of women. This degradation is an open
door to greater violence and abuse of women in our
city.
Three, to change the ordinance in the
name of freedom isn't freedom at all. The change
actually causes the freedom of others, those who don't
approve of public nudity -- it causes their freedom to
be infringed upon.
Four, the family-friendly atmosphere
that is so attractive in Fort Collins will change. Our
city will lose the sense of family.
Five, if this front -- if -- this is a
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front door to other difficult issues that would
eventually need to be addressed. What if an employer,
restaurant, or retailer wants a dress code? Would that
eventually be illegal? What are the short- and longer-
term implications for City pools, such as Epic,
Mulberry, City Park, neighborhood pools, and so forth,
riding transport, attending churches, going onto
community playgrounds and so forth?
And finally, from the survey results on
the City website, it's obvious that this is not what
the majority of Fort Collins citizens want.
Again, thank you for your sacrifices to
our city.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. SIMPSON: Hello, City Council.
Thank you, very much for the opportunity to speak with
you tonight. My name is Matt Simpson. I have lived in
Fort Collins for 13 years.
And right up front, I want to say that I
oppose option No. 2 of this ordinance. I believe this
option is not about decriminalizing the female breast
as the ordinance proponents claim, but, rather, this
option is about the desexualization of the female
breast.
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If you guys are inclined to consider
option No. 2, I want you to consider the following four
points as you think about it. More practical points.
No. 1, if you approve this ordinance,
would then touching a topless woman on her breast in
public be no longer considered sexual harassment or
sexual assault?
No. 2, would, in this case, it now be
acceptable to photograph an unsuspecting topless woman
in public?
No. 3, this proposed ordinance would
make it confusing for children to understand which
parts of their bodies are considered private and which
parts of their bodies are considered public.
And -- and fourth, I -- I request that,
again, if you're leaning towards option No. 2 that you
put this to a vote before the general public of the
City of Fort Collins. Quoting Chief Justice John
Roberts, people feel very different about something if
they get a chance to vote on it.
Thank you, very much for your time. I
appreciate it.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. MAJESKI: Good evening, City
Council. Nice to see you. I'm really appreciative of
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all the work that you do. My name is Mitch Majeski.
I'm a pastor in town. A dad of four. And again,
grateful for all that you do. Grateful for the
decision before you that you're weighing carefully.
I would just say this: There's been a
lot of articulate comment, and I would just add this
one thing.
We are dealing with the balancing of
values. I appreciated our speaker before talking about
the most important value here is human value.
And so the ordinance -- the proposal --
option No. 2 -- sets forth an idea to advance human
value or particular -- this particular gender, for
female value.
I would just ask you to consider not to
reject the value, not to reject the idea, but to see if
there's another way we could accomplish the same thing.
I think that's really important for you to exhaust all
of those opportunities before you vote on this.
I am for option No. 1, and I'll keep it
short. Thank you, very much.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. HOAGLUND: Hello. My name is Aaron
Hoaglund. I reside in 80521.
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I've been through the slide show, so I
have a little bit of criticism -- not towards you,
Tyler -- but I think it may have been very useful to
have seen some of what's coming possibly before some of
the public input because what you're about to see is I
think what a lot of people don't realize, which is that
Colorado, as a state, does not criminalize toplessness.
A lot of our neighboring cities -- I
will try and remember exactly what I've seen. Boulder
was brought up. Greeley was brought up. Denver was
brought up. All in the slides to come.
I think what a lot of people don't
realize is that it's already legal in most of your
neighboring cities for women to go topless. They
already have the choice. They're not choosing to use
it.
That being said -- hopefully, I can get
through this if I have the time -- we're looking at the
results: 40 percent, 60 percent. If that number
40 percent is true, you're looking at roughly, given
the 152,000 or so residents -- so says the internet --
that Fort Collins has, you're looking at about 56-plus-
thousand people in the town, if that survey is
representative of the population, who are for this
measure of equality.
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Historically, it's been the purpose of
the law to protect those in the minority from the
oppressive will of the majority. In this case, will
you side with the majority as a show of democracy, or
will you side with the minority who is seeking equal
rights?
With regard to the proposed Option 1,
there is still problematic language with breast and
buttocks being not clearly defined.
And also, the word "breast" is used
singular in Option 1, so I wonder if you intend to cite
a young woman for having two breasts out or one breast
out or just what?
A lot of the clarification that we
intended with this did not happen. Thanks.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. BURNS: Yes. My name's Ken Burns.
I've been -- had the opportunity and the -- the honor
to serve in this community, working with the justice
system as a former chaplain at the Larimer County
detention center, as one who has been a pastor in this
community for many years, working with some of the
toughest, hardened criminals in our community.
And I've had a chance to get to know
some of you that are on the Council over the years and
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I appreciate your service and all that you have done.
And I guess more than anything, as one
who's also a father of two daughters, the word that
comes to mind here more than anything else is the word
"legacy."
It's not only what we do here today that
impacts our community today, but it's the choices that
we make today that impacts our community for the
future. We have an opportunity to choose today what
our future looks like. What kind of legacy do we want
to leave as a community? What kind of legacy do we
want to have for generations? We get to choose today.
And quite frankly, I want to leave a
legacy because when it's all said and done, my wealth
isn't going to go with me, my materials aren't going to
go with me. The thing that's going to go with me is
the legacy that I leave behind, the choices that I've
made with my life, my reputation. Those are the things
that I'm going to leave behind. And that's the most
important thing when it's all said and done. Thank
you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MS. SIX: Good evening, Council members
and Mayor. My name is Samantha Six. And I'm from
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80526. Before I jump into this, I'd like to just touch
on a few things that I've heard tonight.
In regard to this going public, No. 1,
how many cameras are in this room right now? This
story has already been represented on Associated Press
and USA Today. It's public.
Equal but different isn't equal. And
there is no place for religion in a public forum.
I'm here to speak in favor for equality.
I'm here to ask you to decide in favor of allowing
women to go topless in Fort Collins. The current rule
sexualizes women in Fort Collins without their consent.
And if you decide to only allow breast-feeding in
public, while you will be in line with Federal law, you
will be continuing to sexualize women without their
consent.
Not only are you sexualizing women, but,
if you vote for Option 1, you will be sexualizing,
stigmatizing, and potentially criminalizing girls as
young as 10 years old.
If you decide to do this, you will be
contributing to the prep -- or the preparation --
perpetuation of rape culture and rape apology.
There is no valid argument against
granting equal rights. Women deserve and should have
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the right to make decisions concerning their own
bodies. By not deciding in favor of equality, you are
saying women are less deserving of (sic) men.
Right now, you have the opportunity to
be leaders in the movement for equality and show that
you believe all people should be treated equal.
Finally, I want to tell you that even if
you decide against equality tonight, this issue will
not go away, and we will continue to fight for equality
in Fort Collins until we are successful.
And touching on another subject that I
heard as I walked in this evening, I hope that I can
take all of your words at ending discrimination in Fort
Collins. Good evening.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MS. BURNS: My name is Janice Burns. I
have two teenage daughters. One of them said if this
passes, I don't want my fiance walking around town with
me. They go to Old Town. They don't want -- she
doesn't want him seeing other topless women.
The FBI just rounded up over 100 sex
traffickers and pimps, in this area included, and sex
offenders and sex traffickers is not going to decrease
if this is passed. It's going to only increase.
My husband was the chaplain of a sex
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offender church and I know that they have extensive
rules about what they can and cannot do. They cannot
see, they cannot go this place or that place at this
time or that time; all rules that are made by the
parole board in order to keep them from going into --
leading them into temptation.
This would fly in the face of all that
the parole officers try to do and would flaunt what is
causing them problems. We would have more sex
offenders, not less.
If a woman wants to breast-feed, women
have been breast-feeding in public for centuries
without the need to be topless in order to do it. It
can be done discreetly and it has been done by
everybody that I know that's ever breast fed, which is
most mothers, so it is not necessary to be topless to
breast-feed.
And I have a question about the
exception for performance venues. What does that
include? Does that mean at New West Fest, it would be
okay for people to be walking around or if you're on
any stage anywhere? What does that mean?
And I, for one, would not stick around
this city. I would not work in this city. I would go
far, far away where I did not have to come into this
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city ever to be exposed to this because it's against my
will.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MS. NAZECK: Good evening. My name is
Rosie Nazeck and I live on Camelot Drive. I have four
small children. They are 8, 6, 4, and 2. And just a
couple weeks ago, we were at the doctor's office doing
a yearly checkup and the doctor said, Well, I'm going
to sort of look you over, but you know that, you know,
no one is allowed to look at these parts of your body
unless they are your parent or a doctor?
And she was -- she said to me, Have you
had a conversation with your 8-year-old and your
6-year-old regarding what parts of their body should be
covered? Have you given them the swimsuit talk is what
she said? And what she was indicating, obviously, was
that you want your children to know that the parts of
their body that are covered by a swimsuit should not be
exposed to the general public and to other people
because there's a great chance of child pornography,
child molestation, and just the ability for children to
be exploited in that way.
And having nudity in Fort Collins,
having toplessness in Fort Collins, it's just one step
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in the direction of allowing this in -- you know, any
sort of nudity in Fort Collins.
And if we have this as something that's
equal, as has been said before, we're not the same.
Equal dignity is not sameness. I say to
my children all the time, You don't always get what
your siblings get because you are different or you're
older or you're younger. That we all just have --
we're different because of who we are and what age we
are or different -- differences like that. Thanks.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
LYNN: Good evening.
MAYOR TROXELL: Bring the microphone
down and speak right into it.
LYNN: Can you hear me?
MAYOR TROXELL: That's good.
LYNN: Okay. Thank you. My name is
Lynn. And my husband and I have lived in Fort Collins
for about ten years from Oregon.
We came to this town because of
everything it offers. It's a beautiful town. It's got
so much to offer.
Now, let me ask you this: When you
guys -- and females -- when everybody heard let's free
the nipple campaign, did you not laugh? Seriously? I
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laughed until I realized this is really -- this is
really something to discuss. I was shocked. I was
flabbergasted. I just never thought I'd be here to
defend the nipple, to keep it private.
Morally speaking -- I know that one gal
said, Let's don't bring religion into it. Okay. Well,
let's -- I am a Christian, but I won't put religion
into it. I'll just put morals into it. Morally, we
are -- we as females -- we are known growing up that
the breasts are used for two things: Sexual desire for
men and for breast-feeding. It was never intended to
just go and flaunt.
If this passed -- and I hope that every
one of you will look into your heart and think about
your children, your grandchildren. If this passed, I
can't go downtown. I would never take my grandchildren
downtown. And that saddens me because it is a great
city. There's just no -- no room for this. I hope you
don't pass this. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next?
MR. NAZECK: My name is Jacob Nazeck. I
live on Camelot Drive here in Fort Collins. I'm the
father of four young children, a husband.
My wife and I have been here, raising
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our family because we love Fort Collins. It's a
wonderful place for families. We have many, many
friends who are also bringing up their young kids and
we all brag to our siblings, our families, friends in
other places about how much we love this city.
I work very hard to raise my children in
what I believe is the right way, to protect them from
what seems to be a coarse culture.
And I'd just like to point out that we
already have many common-sense distinctions and laws in
place regarding decency and the differences between men
and women.
We don't allow pornographic magazines to
be on display at checkout lines in grocery stores and
that's for the sake of my children.
In our conversation about homelessness
at the beginning of this meeting, there were
distinctions between men and women, separate
accommodations. No one takes issue with that. We all
know, common sense tells us there are differences
between the sexes.
This law, the existing ordinance as it
stands is simply an example of that. It's a -- a
natural outgrowth of that. And so I would propose or
encourage you please to simply maintain the status quo
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as it is. Please do not change the current ordinance.
Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. PATCHEN: My name is Chuck Patchen.
I live at 2513 Wyandot, 80526. I'm a business owner,
father of two girls and two boys, pastor in this
community.
We, as Americans, are all counted as
equal, created, endowed by our creator with equal
rights under the law, equal in worth by people. This
is not a debate about equality. Although being equal,
we are different. We have distinct ways in which
sexually, we are motivated, we are stimulated,
psychologically and chemically. It's a well-proven and
established fact.
To endorse this, it changes your
community for women and men. I believe it makes women
less safe and increases abuse.
Being a citizen of Las Vegas, Nevada,
for 12 years, being on mission trips in Bangkok, China,
Thailand, and in Serifos, Greece, where you have
toplessness and nudity and sex trade, it -- it attracts
different businesses. It changes your communities. It
changes family life.
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In these places where these events take
place, you have a rise in abuse, in -- in sexual
assault, you have a rise -- even economically in the
workforce, it's diminished, and you begin to attract
other trades.
This doesn't just stay static. It
begins to affect family life and personal life, but
also businesses and how your city is -- is developed.
I would advocate that you vote no on 2.
Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MS. DOZIER: Hi. My name is Rachel
Dozier. I was born in Loveland and have been here in
Fort Collins for about eight years. I work as a nurse
here.
I would just like to state that I am not
in any way discriminated against or unequal because I
keep my breasts covered and that is not where my
identity comes from.
I would like to just speak on behalf of
a lot of the other citizens here, men in particular in
Fort Collins, just to reiterate some points that have
already been spoken. I spent a lot of time wading
through unbelievable amounts of statistics, going over
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the fact that exposure to sexually explicit materials,
pornography, which has been considered -- toplessness
has been considered that to this point, and the rise of
unsafe premarital sex, sexually violent behavior,
increased sexually transmitted infections, unwanted
pregnancies, abortions, everything that flows
downstream from that.
And just what has been pointed out
already that there has to be a line drawn in the sand
somewhere of what's appropriate. And that has already
been drawn, as someone pointed out, the magazines in
the stores are covered, but I can turn around and walk
outside and I can see a fully unclothed woman?
My husband and I are hoping to make Fort
Collins our home, a place to invest. He's worked at
CSU, getting his Ph.D. there. If this ordinance is
passed, it would seriously hinder our ability to be
invested to have a family to be part of this community
if that is the atmosphere.
So I ask you to vote no on option 2.
And I just would like to end by saying
that our rights and our freedom are not rights to the
detriment of the other people around us. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. SELKIN: Council members, Mayor, I
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appreciate the time. I'm going to refer to you as
lawmakers because that's what you're doing today.
You're either going to keep the existing law or make
new laws.
MAYOR TROXELL: Your name, please.
MR. SELKIN: I'm sorry. My name is Tom
Selkin. I live in the Greenbriar Park area in District
1.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you.
MR. SELKIN: So I'm going to refer to
you as lawmakers. And I've had many of my friends
and -- comments are, What is the Council thinking?
Don't we have better time to do other things? This is
ridiculous. And then I come and see the two advisory
commissions support Option 2.
I do not support Option 2 and I do not
support Option 1. I think the Council should leave it
as is. But I thought about that question. Why are we
here? What's going on?
And the more I thought about it and what
I've heard from other people here is there are
differences. Everyone in this room knows there are
differences between a male and a female. And we know
that because it is part of nature. It's part of
nature's laws.
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And that's where you guys get your
basis. There's been several quotes to the Declaration
of Independence and I'll quote, laws of nature and
nature is God. We know there are differences between
men and women because nature tells us. And that's
where you as a Council, our birth certificate, the
Declaration of Independence, that's where you derive
your power.
It wasn't that long ago -- maybe a
generation -- where public, our elected
representatives, they understood natural law. And I'll
use the Nuremberg trials as a perfect example 70 years
ago. The Nazis on trial said I follow German law. You
can't prosecute me. And the Nuremberg court said no,
you violated natural law. Crimes against humanity.
So you -- we are all subject to natural
law. There's differences between males and females.
Use that power, Council, and please vote no on both.
Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. WAGNER: Thank you for this
opportunity. My name is Fred Wagner. I've lived in
Wellington for 17 years now. My wife and I do almost
all of our shopping here in Fort Collins. We have date
nights here in Fort Collins. And we have five kids
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that we like to do different activities down here in
Fort Collins.
Frankly, I'm quite amazed that we're
even here to have this discussion tonight. It's just
beyond the pale of what I consider normal thought
processes of a civilized people.
The measure of great cultures and
civilizations, in my opinion, I think, that is borne
out through history is the moral standards that they
uphold. We've seen -- seen lately that these moral
standards seem to be going downhill in the United
States. And just because other cities and the State
might do it doesn't necessarily mean, as somebody said,
we have to jump off the bridge with them.
I believe if you pass the ordinance,
it's going to contribute to a downhill trend. I think
it'll lead to disrespect for women, for men, and for
children.
And you know, I've not heard of -- very
many, quote/unquote, religious comments made tonight.
And if I was a religious person, does that discredit me
from being able to talk? After all, even if I was
religious, I'm a citizen of the country and of the
state and of the county, so I don't think that has any
bearing on it.
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Thanks for your consideration and for
your time.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. DUBOIS: Thank you. My name is Pat
Dubois. I live in southeast Fort Collins in Councilman
Campana's district there. And I want to thank you.
This is my first City Council meeting
and I'm impressed with what you do and thankful for the
time that you spend.
Initially, when I looked at the agenda,
I thought these are boring issues and there are --
really, a lot of them, what you covered are very
important things. They affect a lot of people's lives.
I also want to thank the people that
came here tonight.
MAYOR TROXELL: Please keep your
comments directed to us. Thank you.
MR. DUBOIS: Let me put it this way: I
am so impressed and so proud with the community that
came out here tonight. They gave up, you know -- I had
to consider giving up family time with my kids, they
gave up time either with their family or personal
things that they wanted to do to come down here because
they felt it was so important.
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I moved here almost 20 years ago because
this was a -- the greatest place that I could find to
raise a family in the U.S. I was relocating from
overseas.
In the process of those years, I've
counseled many other people that were considering, you
know, changing jobs and relocating to move to Fort
Collins because it's a great place to raise a family.
Okay?
We all that have children struggle in
today's society with raising young children. I have a
9-year-old and a 12-year-old. I agree that there are
sexist orientations in this society that need to
change. Okay? But you don't change them by throwing
our innocent children into an environment that
contradicts and conflicts with the moral values that
we're trying to raise. Thank you, very much.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next?
MR. LeVASSEUR: Good evening, Council.
My name is Jason LeVasseur. I live in 80526.
And I want to reiterate that I think
it's very surreal. This just feels very surreal to me
to be here talking about this issue tonight. Like it's
actually here on the table, we're actually considering
this.
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And I just -- everyone has touched on
just about everything I've had in my notes, so I don't
even know if I'm going to read this. I don't know what
to say.
I'd just express to you that I don't
think equality does mean sameness.
It would severely alter my view of this
city that I've lived in for almost 20 years if this
Option 2 was passed.
I -- I hope that you are not intimidated
or only hear the two proponent voices here tonight and
have that overshadow the majority of people who -- and
not that majority makes right, but I think common sense
does and just common decency.
My first reaction when I heard about
this was, What's going on? What are we coming to? Why
are we even talking about this?
And my wife is very against it and
was -- I said, Honey, can I just record your rant and
play it for everybody because I'm going to get up there
and forget everything I'm supposed to say?
But we have two daughters here and we do
have decency standards. And I can't take my 9-year-old
daughter to a PG-13 movie or an R-rated movie because
there's protections there for her.
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If you put a topless woman in print,
that's considered pornography. And I don't want it to
be -- to hold me back from walking up College Avenue
because there's potentially -- you know, Fort Collins
potentially has been turned into a topless bar. Okay.
Thank you for listening.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
DEBORAH: Hi, Mayor, Council members.
My name is Deborah, and I'm a first-time homeowner and
dog owner in Fort Collins with my husband and we've
really come to love this city.
And so as a citizen of this city, I
would ask you to vote no to Option 2.
As a marriage and family therapist grad
student at CSU, I believe that male and female should
be treated with equal rights and respect.
And with that said, I believe that this
ordinance would not allow for this -- that would allow
for a woman to be topless would detract considerably
from those goals.
I highly question the motives and the
reasons of the statement that women's breasts should be
considered the same as men's. I believe many arguments
have been made to that point, so I'll move on.
So, for me, as an empirically based
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researcher that views family systemically within the
context of society, I would urge you to consider --
reconsider supporting option No. 2. The effects on
children and families of having topless women in public
is not something that can be ignored. This is
something that will expose unwilling children and can
skew gender identity and sexuality in young children in
a society that's already exposing and sexualizing our
children at younger and younger ages.
I won't -- research has shown that this
can lead to greater risk for delinquency and depression
in our children.
Additionally, the potential anxiety that
this would provoke in parents is something that would
negatively affect parenting, marriage, and families in
our city.
In other ways, I really believe in
instilling women's equality and rights and as a woman,
I would like to say that this is not an empowerment of
women.
So please fight for supporting healthy,
high-functioning families in Fort Collins by voting no
to this change. Thank you for your time and
consideration and your service to the City.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
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Next.
MR. RUSSELL: My name is -- my name is
Tom Russell. I live on Fern Court here in Fort
Collins. I moved here -- one of the reasons was that
Money Magazine said that this was one of the top ten
cities in the United States to live in.
To tell you the truth, I don't believe
the statistics you have up on that chart are accurate.
According to my count, they're not even close, in this
meeting at least.
I -- I only found out about this thing
this morning with a news report at 10 minutes while I
was driving to school. I think there's a lot of people
in Fort Collins that have no knowledge of this at all
and I think that's why it's the -- the -- the
statistics are skewed.
I have all kinds of points here and
these other people have hit these points.
Before I moved to Fort Collins, for 14
years, I worked with at-risk teenage girls, from 11
years old to 18 years old. I want the Council to
understand that every decision you make has
consequences. And one of the horrible consequences of
a decision to accept these options would be the crime
rate increase in sexual crime here in Fort Collins. We
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would have to then deal with that. We'd have to
allocate money. We'd have to allocate resources
because of a decision that's made in the name of
equality when I don't believe this has anything to do
with equality.
I think we need to make a decision and
these Council members that these folks have voted for
are to represent us, all of us together. And cities
can have standards in that city.
And I would beg you to consider your
decision would be in the future, do we want Fort
Collins to be known as a progressive radical city or a
family-friendly city. And your decision on this
Council will determine that. Thank you, very much.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next?
MS. HOXIE: Good evening. My name is
Robyn Hoxie. I live on Pitkin Street in the northeast
part of Fort Collins. Thank you for having all of us
and for so patiently listening to all of us.
I come to you all tonight as a mom.
Well, sorry. Back it up. As a woman and also as a
mother of four young kids: One girl, three boys.
First of all, as a woman.
I, first of all, do not feel threatened
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in my equality alongside men. My dad did a wonderful
job of telling me I could do anything, and I still
believe that to this day.
I do not think that being topless or not
topless would determine that for my future.
I also think that toplessness or the
idea of sexism here is maybe a little out of context
for women. I think sexism maybe could be defined -- I
don't know the definition personally. I could --
didn't look it up, but I think it has to do with the
idea of making somebody an object used for sex
versus -- like putting them as an object for sexual use
versus like -- or women, saying, You only fit in this
box.
I don't necessarily think it is related
to how we are physically coming across or physically
how we're dressed. I personally do not want to reveal
my breasts in public. I think they are very special
and I would like to treat them that way.
Secondly, as a mom, I am trying to raise
my sweet daughter as a powerful, strong, passionate
woman who is going to take on the day, and I don't want
her hindered by anything.
Secondly, my sons, I want them to treat
women with love, honor, respect, and to put them in the
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place that they deserve, kind of on a pedestal. That's
at least how my dad taught me.
And so I think -- even my 5-year-old has
an issue with wanting to touch body parts and so nudity
wouldn't help that. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. YOUNGS: Thank you, City Council,
for allowing me to speak tonight. I'm Leif Youngs, and
I live over in the Campus West district area. I've
lived there for almost 15 years now.
And I came here because I wanted to go
to CSU and I've been trying to get away from CSU and
Fort Collins, but it keeps drawing me back. It's such
an awesome city because of a lot of what you guys do.
I was thinking about what to say while
standing in line and a lot of people have said a lot of
things I wanted to say.
What came to mind was three struggles
women have had in the course of history. One was the
right to vote. We wouldn't think any differently
about -- if we banned the right to vote today, there
would be outcry, there would be riots. We wouldn't do
that.
Second was the right to run the
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marathon. If we banned that today, there would be --
there would be riots.
Third is what's currently happening.
It's equal pay for equal work. We want that to be
equal.
Fourth is now, we want women just to be
equal. If they could take off their shirt, that would
give them all the power in the world. But would they
do it? I don't think they would. I think just knowing
they could do it and be equal to men would give them --
would give them power.
And lastly, I think guys with their
shirts off, half of them are pretty disgusting, so I
think some guys should keep their shirts on. Some
girls can take their shirts off. That's their choice.
But let's give them equal power, equal
rights. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Please,
no -- next.
MR. HOUSER: Hi. My name is Dan Houser.
I live at 1105 Kirkwood Drive here in Fort Collins.
Moved here just a couple years ago. I love the city.
I came back here after eight years of serving in the
military. Wanted to go to school and so now I'm a
student at CSU. 30 years old. Married to an amazing
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woman who is back there. She's there with my little
boy who is nine months old, so I'm going to have fun
raising him up.
I think raising him up -- I'm probably
not going to be here in two years, but I would love to
think that the City of Fort Collins is as great in 10
or 15 years as it is now. And I definitely think that
allowing women to walk around topless is definitely not
going to get toward that goal.
I think -- I'm not going to say it
nearly as eloquently as so many of the people here have
said it, but they have just knocked off the list of
things that I wanted to say.
I think there's a million other things
we could say, but, in the end, I think what people have
really come down to is it's not about equality. It
seems like it's really about the agenda of the minority
trying to dictate how the majority live, and I think
that's totally wrong.
I think if you really want to live in a
way that's so specific to you, go somewhere else and do
it. Don't force everybody else in the City of Fort
Collins to live the way that you want to live
because -- what -- two people have come down and
talked -- or three people, maybe, have said that they
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would support this, and I think the majority of the
people here that -- that don't support this are the
people who are going to be here in 10, 15, and 20
years. So thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. COVIAS: Hi. My name Luke Covias,
and I have been a resident here in Larimer County for
33 years. I've been in Fort Collins for six years. I
have two children in this community.
I've also founded an organization here
in Fort Collins called Stand Firm Colorado. And what
we do is we educate K through 12 on the impacts of
drugs.
And so I just don't feel it's in our
community's best interest to have to try and educate
and empower and encourage these kids to make positive
decisions when faced with -- with this -- with this
ordinance.
So I hope that you guys stand firm with
me and vote no on this ordinance. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MS. KISLING: My name is Erin Kisling.
I've been a resident of Fort Collins and the
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surrounding area for about the last 17 years. I come
to you as a woman and a mother of four daughters, ages
14, 12, 8 and 6.
I'm adamantly against allowing women to
go topless in public. Men and women are different,
period. A man's chest is not the same as a woman's
chest. The society we live in today is, unfortunately,
hypersexualized and there is a billion-dollar porn
industry both supporting and promoting it.
Walking around public where -- bearing
naked breasts is not creating equality between men and
women. These points have been touched on numerous
times tonight.
For my daughters, I believe that they
deserve to be noticed for who they are. I teach them
that they are to be noticed for their given talents,
their intellect, not as the sexual beings that society
treats them as. They deserve respect. And this is not
asking for respect.
If only this issue was as simple as
seeking equal rights for women. And it's not. We must
ask ourselves what doors would be opened should this
pass. Would it then give the pornography industry a
foothold to say that they should be able to display
their magazines without the required plastic cover?
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After all, it's only breasts that are being revealed.
Is that what we want our children to see when they walk
into a gas station?
It is so much more. It's about decency,
respect, protecting oneself, teaching our children the
value of their body and not giving in to the few who
seek to cause noise and a shock factor.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MS. AMUNDGAARD: Good evening, Council
members. Jamie Amundgaard. I live just outside of the
town in Timnath, but 90 percent of what I do is in Fort
Collins. My shopping, my spending, my dollar already
comes here. And so I speak to you first in that
course.
I am a mother. I am an involved
community member. I am a voter. And I have a small
business. And because of that, I really want to look
at what's going to happen to the businesses that are
here.
Personally, as a mother with two small
children, it's going to change where and how I shop.
It's going to change where I spend my time and my
money.
I moved here because Fort Collins has a
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reputation for being a family-friendly -- friendly
environment.
The Fort Collins police spoke last night
at my son's school and did an amazing seminar on
internet safety for our kids. And one of the things
that struck me today as I was considering coming
tonight was that Officer Maynard talked about the laws
that impact our children and they don't realize these
laws. And a picture can be snapped of a woman with her
breasts exposed and it can be sent to another child and
it has ruined that child's life. It's a felony. So we
have laws that impact this for our children.
We are strengthening our laws for our
children from unwanted nudity, lewd things; right? So
we are trying to create this as a community and move
forward through these things. So we're strengthening
our laws, and it feels to me that this ordinance --
particularly Option 2 -- is absolutely going to be in
direct conflict with the laws that we have in place to
protect our children.
Also, one comment on the form that came
out, I know a lot of the IP addresses were different.
My question is if I lived in Fort Collins and received
that survey, I would have voted and my husband would
have voted. And were those two things taken into
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consideration, or were a good portion of those surveys
that were thrown out mothers and fathers together at a
home?
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. ELLIOTT: My name is Tom Elliott.
And I want to ask a question. In this sensationalized
24-hour media, you do realize that this will make
national news. My question would be is this the kind
of news you want to produce and is this the -- is this
what you want this city to be known for?
This is Fort Collins. We don't need to
be Boulder or some other city. I'm a cofounder of an
organization called Life For The Innocent, and we're
involved in the rescue of women from sex trafficking.
There's a clear connection between human
trafficking and pornography. Many of the women trapped
in that world simply do not want to be there. They are
exploited by men. Men who make money off of their
nudity. These same men then market the nudity of these
women to an audience of men. These men pay billions of
dollars each year supporting this, an industry that
exploits women.
Common sense says that these men would
love to see women walking around topless. They would
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love for their behind-closed-doors virtual world to
become reality.
In an attempt to gain a right, women
would be giving a right to these same men. This would
not be a step forward for women's rights. It would be
a huge step backward.
Therefore, I urge you for the sake of
the city, more importantly for the sake of women,
please do not legalize toplessness.
Thank you, City Council, for all you do.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MS. HOAGLUND: Brittany Hoaglund, 80521.
As the figurehead of the topless equality movement in
Fort Collins, I've witnessed really terrible things.
I've watched people say that women deserve to be raped.
I have been called an exhibitionist, a slut, that I too
deserve to be raped, molested, and otherwise assaulted.
It seems nothing will show you misogyny
quite like fighting for women's rights. It's sad that
hasn't changed, yet despite how we stand with the
shoulders of giants who got women and the LGBTQIA this
far.
I've also seen you all get financially
blackmailed, which must be scary, considering how much
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financial responsibility you have to the city.
I hope you're listening, everybody,
because you all need to hear this the most. People who
have the same rights as men will not hurt you. No
woman, no nonbinary, no trans person will bring you
bodily harm for having the right to choose. There will
be no bruises, no cuts, no stolen property. You will
be safe.
But for these other people, it is not
safe. Feminine upper body parts are objectified and
used to sell everything from cars to fast food, yet
when a person outside a picture or video chooses to
show or not show, we get shamed, harassed, raped,
murdered. In this case, we could also be fined and
jailed.
People deserve what you have: The
right, the safety, the power to determine what we do
with our bodies. It's just a choice. It's just a
right. And it won't hurt you.
Only making an exception for breast-
feeding mothers will not stop the harassment these
women face. It's a Federally protected right, yet
mothers are still spit on for being indecent. Doesn't
that say a lot? How these weapons of mass nutrition
are only seen as raunchy, despite how they carried our
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species through famine and war and abundance.
Think of the children. Teaching the
children that the breast is not sexual, that women
should have freedom and autonomy over their bodies as
men do and being exposed to such can prevent children
from developing harmful sexist conclusions about the
human body, that's your job as a parent. Teach them
equality. Teach them the women, LGBT are just as much
people as men.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. HALL: My name is Patrick Hall. I
live in the Campus West area. For some period of time,
the male upper body was just as criminalized, if you
will, as the woman's body is today.
It's a psychology that we're having
about how the women upper body is so foreign from
society, and as one said earlier today, the -- there
are some people who should not walk around with their
shirt off.
And it's more so about giving these
people -- these women a choice, not about making it a
stand up for something that's not about equality. It's
completely about equality. It's about trying to -- as
Brittany said, about trying to find a -- a source of
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how people are finding -- a source of why people are
sexualizing the body when it can be sexualized, but is
simply a form of feeding youth.
I do -- I personally don't even really
care whether or not the female body is exposed in
public. However, obviously, some people do care.
There does, however, need to be a
movement for women being defended on this issue with
objectification. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. SMITH: Good evening. My name is
Scott Smith, 805 -- 80525. Thank you for your service.
I just wanted to say I'm also astounded,
along with many other people who are in this audience,
that this is an issue that is taking up the time of the
City Council.
I'm looking at the City Council -- or
the Fort Collins City's values, mission, and vision for
the City: Values which include outstanding services,
innovation and creativity, respect, integrity,
initiative, collaboration, and teamwork and
stewardship. I'm fighting to -- to fit this particular
ordinance into those values.
As I look at the 2015-2016 strategic
plan, I'm also having a hard time trying to fit this
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particular -- these particular options, other than
Option 0, keeping it the same, into that vision:
Specifically, community and the liveability of our
neighborhoods. I'm not sure that this particular --
especially Option 2 fits in with that whole idea.
I had the opportunity to live in Sao
Paulo, Brazil, for an extended time, and I can tell you
that the public nudity there is much freer and more
liberal than many of the cities that we have in the
United States, and I can tell you that it -- it
contributes to the rawness or the -- I would say danger
that many of the people in that city face on a daily
basis.
I think that it's important to realize
that progress is important. I'm all for progress, but
progressing are the things that refine us, I'm a little
bit reluctant to do. Thank you for your time.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. STRALO: Hello. My name is Cole
Stralo. I'm a resident of Fort Collins.
And I would ask you, Council, not to
implement Option 2 because I believe that female
breasts are sacred. It's been suggested tonight that
to prevent a woman from exposing her breasts is to
sexualize her.
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I looked up the definition for
sexualize. It is to make sexual, attribute sex or a
sex role to. And I would submit to you that no human
has the ability to, quote, sexualize another human. No
human has the ability to give a sexual role to another
human because we did not make ourselves. It was not
our idea to create sexuality. It's a God-given thing
that's beautiful and is sacred and it does not demean
women to tell them that they are not allowed to expose
these things that are sacred and God-given. And I'd
urge you to consider that and not to do this. Thank
you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MS. SMITH: Good evening. I'm Lisa
Smith in southeast Fort Collins. I love living here.
I think it's just as important to
consider how we come to conclusions and why as it is to
consider the conclusions we come to themselves.
I've heard a couple of things tonight
that lead me to think that we need to consider how
we're going to come to this decision as a city.
First of all, the definition of nudity
that's being proposed for this change is that it be
considered waist down. That's today. What's to say if
we set the precedent now of nudity, top up is not okay,
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but that in two or three years, when somebody decides
we should all be able to just run around buck naked for
whatever reason, we've set a very dangerous precedent.
That's one of the things that the
Supreme Court considers when they are making a
decision. What's the precedent. So if we don't like
the idea of someday all of us just running around in
our birthday suits, I think we ought to give some
strong consideration to not setting a precedent now.
I also think that the argument that
everyone else is doing it has never been a solid
argument. As a parent, I don't care how many of my
kids' friends are doing something illegal. My child
will never be allowed to do that thing because it's
wrong, not because all their friends are doing it.
And if Fort Collins is the only city in
this country that doesn't support public nudity, then I
will gladly live here, and I think we will attract a
high caliber of human being.
Three, if we're going to keep coming
back to the argument, then we will keep coming back to
defend it. No matter how long my child has a tantrum,
I will say no when no is the appropriate thing to be
said.
And finally, if equality is the thing
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that will make people on the other side of the argument
feel better, then let's raise the standard and say
let's all put our shirts on and be modest. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Very much.
MS. HOLLINGSWORTH: Scottie
Hollingsworth. I'm at 80525. I wrote an email earlier
today. And Kristin, you responded and I appreciate
that.
There have been a number of wonderful
things said this evening, but I think, most
importantly, it is important to point out that when
Brittany was interviewed by CBS News, she indicated
that she may not even go topless.
So for someone who was fighting so hard
for something may not even actually do it, that leaves
it very questionable in my mind. She says she wants to
be chipping away at gender equality.
She mentioned earlier, doesn't want
women objectified. I can't see how you would be more
objectified as to walk down the street topless. You're
not wearing anything. A man is not going to look at
you as the beautiful person that you are made to be if
he's completely distracted by your breasts. It's not
appropriate. It's not decent. It's not right. And I
think that everybody in this community knows that.
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If she doesn't appreciate it, she can
move to Boulder. Elsewhere. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. CRANE: Hello, Council. My name is
Andrew Crane. I live on Gunnison Drive in Collins. I
think the recurring thing I've been hearing tonight
that makes a lot of sense to everybody is fear. I
guess to be corny and quote my favorite philosopher
Voltaire, he said it would be better to let free a man
of guilt than to incarcerate a man that is innocent.
And I think what he really means by that
is that these things are hard. This is a hard subject.
This is something that's been in our society for a long
time. But equality is equality. As a man, if someone
told me I couldn't take my shirt off, I'd flip out.
How did we get to this point? It's man's fault. The
most dangerous thing to a woman in this world is men.
It's us that needs to change. It's us that needs to
say it's okay.
Women are feared to take their shirt off
because they don't want to be ridiculed. They want to
be seen as something that you can talk to that has a
brain.
I mean, I've made love to men and women,
so I've seen very different insights for myself in a
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different way. I -- I've heard a lot of religion here,
too, which I actually do believe in a God sometimes and
I do realize that I think God put Adam and Eve on this
earth naked at first because they were good. They
screwed up and had to put clothes on.
It kills me that we can't get to the
point in society that we see people as so beautiful
that we can actually envision people walking by naked
and I can walk by a woman and look her in the eyes and
just everything is fine and get past that.
There was a time in our society where
having an ankle out would have been something wrong,
but we have gotten past that. And it's going to be
hard. It's going to be terrifying. But unless we
actually do it and dream of something better than we
actually are, we're never going to get there. We'll
always stay here in this parochial view and never
aggregate real love. And it kills me.
So thank you for just listening and I
know this is a hard subject.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next.
MR. KNOBEL: Monte Knobel. 80524, Fort
Collins. Resident for a long time. Father, husband.
Grandfather.
And I appreciate all of you. Thank you
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for your consideration on all this. A couple of things
that I haven't heard yet.
One is, on the printed document, there's
a lot of yellow space. Does that stay in the proposal?
And if so, the yellow highlighted, which tells that the
public is a right-of-way, a natural area, recreation
area, or trail, recreation center, public building,
public square, wherever, while located in any other
public place, private property, if the person is in a
place that can be viewed from level ground by another
and on and on and on, do those comments stay in the
proposals? Okay?
So there are -- it -- it seems if that's
true -- and I am speaking -- asking you to vote for
neither of these two, but to just totally absolve it
and leave the issue where it is. If these things
eliminate most of the public places, I don't know where
someone wants to be public with their toplessness, so
that needs to be clarified for me.
The bigger issue for me and perhaps for
you and for us is where it says Section 17-142, "public
indecency" is crossed out, "nudity" is brought in. I
think the definition of those two terms and the
importance of those two terms is very vital to the
discussion and to the future of Fort Collins.
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Nudity is simply an observation of
clothes or no clothes. Decency is something a whole
lot more. It goes to morality or immorality. And I
think the big issue is what or who decides what that
is. I hope the media will speak and portray us as --
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Thank you.
Next.
MR. MESSERLY: Good evening. I'm Eric
Messerly. I haven't lived here for very long, but I do
want to say that as a young man who doesn't take part
in that billion-dollar industry, I do seek to cherish
and honor women, and I don't think them walking around
topless is part of that.
I love my wife very much. It won't help
me personally. I don't want to walk around Old Town
and have to divert my eyes to continue cherishing my
wife and cherishing our relationship together.
So I do believe it is damaging. And I
don't think that walking around topless is going to
help anybody cherish or respect women. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MS. HAYS: Hi. I'm Christine Hays and
I've lived in the city for 40 years. I'm currently a
member of the Human Relations Commission, but I'm
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speaking as a citizen tonight. And I just wanted to
make two points.
On page 7, it reads -- on Option 2, it
says Option 2 would update the code provisions by
allowing female toplessness within the city and
specifically prohibiting all nudity below the waist for
both sexes with certain limited exceptions. That's not
written up there under that Option 2, so I would ask
that you clarify what "with certain limited exceptions"
might be before you take a vote on it.
The second thing that I had wanted to
point out is no matter what you do with the provision,
is that the way that our indecency or our nudity
statute is written or ordinance is written right now,
any woman that is exposing cleavage, part of her breast
from the side, a little bit from below, any part of the
breast at all, she's in violation of the ordinance.
So even though everybody is focusing on
nipples and toplessness, you need to understand that
what we have right now is a version that many, many
women that we know and people that we care about are in
violation of already. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Next.
MR. TRAPP: Jimmy Trapp over on the --
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over on Alfred Street. I came with nothing prepared,
so I hope this comes off clearly enough for you.
But as an artist who is frequently
drawing both male and females in the nude, I'm able to
separate what I can sexualize and what I -- what I
choose to sexualize and what I choose not to sexualize.
This makes -- this leads to a -- making
me question is this issue more about what's natural
and -- or what's culturally constructed?
This idea that's been brought forth
about allowing women to be topless out in public is
based on this culturally constructed idea that the
female breasts are indecent, somehow naturally
indecent, and to cover them up is what should be
continued on.
And I believe that because it's a
culturally constructed idea, that to move forward in
a -- in a -- for a movement to allow them the choice,
the option to go out in public without their shirt on
if they choose to do so is a good step into showing
that the female breast doesn't necessarily have to be
sexualized. So thank you, very much.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Next. Last
speaker.
SUSAN: My name is Susan. I live on the
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southeast side of town, 80525.
First of all, I want you to know that
when you took out people who did the survey from the
same address, you took out a lot of people from our
household. We have a large family. We have people
sometimes living with us who are citizens here. We
have adult children. And so for all I know, if you did
that to all the other large families we know, you
really skewed the -- the results.
I want the people here who are for
public nudity to know that when there's a law against
nudity, I don't live in fear. I don't think this is a
hard subject. I think it's a clear subject. I feel
protected and I feel honored.
If you want to feel honored as a woman,
I would find a man who has been trained not to gawk at
other women, not to devalue them, but has waited for
the special relationship where he only looks at one
woman.
I was standing back there, thinking
about diamonds and how the reason -- one of the reasons
they're so valuable is because they're rare. And I
think it's rare these days to have a relationship where
both people in the couple value the other person and
save themselves for the other person. Thank you.
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MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, very much.
Now, I'd like to thank everyone for
speaking tonight and their comments. We're well past
our normal break time, so we're going to take a break
for 10 minutes and reconvene about 8:31. And at that
time, Council will have a conversation, make a motion,
and then -- and then go from there. So thank you, very
much, and we'll adjourn -- we'll break until about
8:31. Thank you.
(There was a recess taken.)
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. We're back
for Item No. 18. We're bringing it back to Council for
questions and discussion.
Mayor Pro Tem Horak.
MAYOR PRO TEM HORAK: Yes. Thank you,
Mayor. Ms. City Attorney, could you -- the first
one -- answer is -- they had a question about what does
the yellow highlighted mean on the two options?
MS. DAGGETT: On the two options, there
are two kinds of markings. One is there are words that
have a line through them, which is striking out
existing code language, so it would be removing
language from the current code. And any new language
that is proposed to be added to the code is shown in
yellow.
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MAYOR PRO TEM HORAK: And a couple
others. One is what -- why did you suggest us making a
change to nudity over indecency?
MS. DAGGETT: The reason for that is
that there is a State law related to public indecency
which actually addresses a much broader range of
offenses and includes certain kinds of activities. And
because our provision really only relates to whether or
not someone is clothed, we thought it would be less
confusing to use a different more exact name for our
local provision.
MAYOR PRO TEM HORAK: And another
question that was asked was about what's the -- either
the case law or your -- I don't know -- I don't want to
say your opinion, but why -- included in the thing
about performances being done and what that means for
this particular ordinance. Performance venues.
MS. DAGGETT: Right. Performance venue
is actually described in the language of the ordinance.
It's described to mean theater, concert hall, museum,
school, or similar establishment to the extent the same
is -- excuse me; I should look at the exact language --
serving as a performance venue.
That language is -- has been proposed
because there's expressive activity in those types of
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venues that we specifically identified as activity that
should be permitted, given the other legal constraints
on the City's regulatory power.
MAYOR PRO TEM HORAK: Just -- are there
any other parts of ordinance No. 1 -- Option No. 1 that
there were changes made because of your review and
other staff review of the -- the existing ordinance
that has been around for a very long time versus what
current case law is, et cetera, dealing with these
subjects?
MS. DAGGETT: We specifically added
breast-feeding as an exception because of the State law
that identifies breast-feeding as a protected activity.
We also specifically -- let me just say,
each of the exclusions was identified as something that
we have seen in other laws, in other jurisdictions,
which it was our understanding the City was not
intending to make illegal.
For example, if someone needs medical
care and their clothes are removed in order to give
them medical care in a public place, the reaction that
we've had uniformly to that is no one would intend that
to be a violation of our code.
Similarly, children under 10 tend to be
treated with a slightly different standard than
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grownups or older teenagers. So we suggested that
children under 10 not be subject to this provision.
There are a lot of other issues related to children
that sort of tie into that.
And so what we were mostly trying to do
is to eliminate aspects of our current law that
actually include places that we don't believe it was
intended people would be prohibited from being nude.
Another good example is a locker room in a gym, where,
clearly, in order to shower, someone needs to be nude.
That's not -- it doesn't violate decency standards in
the same way it was understood the rest of the sort of
public places in the city would -- would tend to.
MAYOR PRO TEM HORAK: Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Gino.
COUNCILPERSON CAMPANA: Thanks, Mayor.
First of all, I was going to tell Tyler you did a great
job on your presentation. I think the first one you've
had before the Council. I see the City Manager picked
a real easy one for you to start out with. You can
thank him later. But you did a very good job.
The Human Relations Commission, when I
was reading their recommendations, I was puzzled
initially, but I think some light was shed on that
tonight. And I'm now wondering if we have a challenge
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of definition.
I looked at -- or you provided to us
what Loveland has in their ordinance with female
breasts below the top of the nipple, and that makes
sense when we look at the entire breast in our
ordinance -- our proposed ordinance and the fact that
we -- yes, we do expose the top of breasts commonly
today.
I'm guessing that's why Loveland
specifically added that into their ordinance.
And the State didn't define the breast,
but added "lewd," so almost like it was behavioral-
based.
And we have neither of those, really.
Neither -- ours is not as clearly defined, I think,
without this definition of further defining the breast
or the behavior. Could you speak to that?
MS. DAGGETT: The specific definition of
what parts of the breast need to be exposed in order to
violate the code, we did not really delve into that,
just because there had not been a lot of discussion
about that particular aspect.
Certainly, we could add to our language
something that would define that more narrowly.
So I think if Council is interested in
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being more specific, I think that is language that
would be fairly easy to add, even on first reading, to
the code.
The second issue which relates to the
State law actually gets to a point that I think was
noted by the Human Rights Commission because the State
law actually calls for an intent. It actually requires
that the exposure be with the intent to arouse or to
satisfy the sexual desire of any person.
So, in fact, rather than just gadding at
somebody who happens to be naked or topless, it
actually gets to somebody's intent, the purpose for
which they're in that state.
That is another thing that we could add
to our code. We don't currently have that and that's
not been in our code. It -- it is in the State law,
so, in fact, behavior that violates that State law is
still illegal under State law, whether or not it's a
violation of our City code.
COUNCILPERSON CAMPANA: That helps.
Thanks.
MAYOR TROXELL: Ross.
COUNCILPERSON CUNNIFF: Just to be clear
on that second point, regardless of what the City does,
the State law applies, and our police would be
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authorized to issue tickets, which would stand up in a
court of law?
MS. DAGGETT: That's correct.
COUNCILPERSON CUNNIFF: Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Kristin.
COUNCILPERSON STEPHENS: Yeah. In that
same vein, what is the penalty for someone who is
topless?
MS. DAGGETT: I think what I might do is
defer to -- Bronwyn was here. Yeah. I think we can
provide that information here in just a moment because
I don't want to jump in. We have a range of penalties
in municipal court. We would need to look at the
court's municipal court fine schedule in order to tell
you exactly what a first offense for a violation of
this provision would be, so we'll work on getting an
answer to that.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Gino, would
you --
COUNCILPERSON CAMPANA: I'm prepared to
make a motion if there's no other questions.
MAYOR TROXELL: Ray?
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: I had a couple
questions. Did the Humans Relations Commission do a
public outreach to the community when they made their
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decision?
MR. MARR: It's not my understanding
that that occurred, Ray -- or Councilman Martinez.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Okay. And did
the Human Relations Commission and the Women's
Commission -- I guess both of those spoke out. Did
either of them do an outreach at all?
MR. MARR: No. The Women's Commission
just weighed their opinion in via email; whereas, the
Human Relations Committee voted on it at their last
meeting.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: So without
seeking anyone else's outside outreach of any sort,
then, they just decided that's what they wanted?
MR. MARR: To be fair, I think that it
was on short notice from us, just trying to seek their
input. That could have something to do with it.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Did they
request to do further outreach?
MR. MARR: Not that I'm aware of.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Okay. And
then, for the City Attorney's office, when someone buys
a Playboy magazine over the counter, do they have to be
a certain age by law?
MS. DAGGETT: That's an issue that we've
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been confirming, and I believe there is a State law
that prohibits the sale of certain types of
publications to minors. And I would look to Bronwyn
Scurlock -- Assistant City Attorney Bronwyn Scurlock,
who is coming down to the mic to respond to that
question.
MS. SCURLOCK: I'm sorry. Could you
repeat -- could you repeat the last question, please?
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Do -- do
magazines showing nudity -- is there an age limit to
what person can buy it? Purchase it? Like Playboy,
for example, that shows breasts?
MS. SCURLOCK: Yes. I believe the State
law prohibits the sale of pornography to minors.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Okay. Is that
the term it uses? Pornography?
MS. SCURLOCK: Yes.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Okay. So
anyone under the age of 18 can't be exposed to pictures
of breasts; right?
MS. SCURLOCK: Cannot be exposed?
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: To pictures of
breasts in a store; right?
MS. SCURLOCK: That's correct.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Or pornography.
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So --
MS. SCURLOCK: I believe the statute
refers to it as obscenity.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Obscenity.
That's considered obscenity for people under the age of
18. So how do we control that if kids are walking
downtown, high schoolers or whoever and a woman decides
to go topless if we pass this? We have no way of
controlling that. What's the difference? I mean, a
picture versus live obscenity? Are you following what
I'm saying, or did I lose you?
MS. DAGGETT: I think, as a practical
matter -- I mean, there is actually a difference
between a person naked and a publication. Not to opine
on the sort of policy choice between those two things,
they are distinguishable.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Right. So if
we have -- if we can't allow for people under the age
of 18 to see it in picture format, why would we allow
them to see it live downtown?
MAYOR TROXELL: Please refrain. Thank
you.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: If -- well, I
think you answered my question. I think I got clarity
on that.
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The -- the other point, I guess -- hang
on. Let me -- let me see a thought here.
MS. DAGGETT: One thing that I can add
while you're thinking -- I'm sorry --
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Sure.
MS. DAGGETT: -- is that on the
municipal court fine schedule, a violation of Section
17-142, which is the section currently entitled public
indecency, is a -- calls for a $250 fine on the first
offense.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Okay. And
right now, for things that are prohibited from people
of a certain age, we designate them to go to certain
sites for that? In other words, if you want to drink
beer, you have to be 21, so you have to go to a
location that's for 21-year-old people only. We don't
make it public for people just to drink out on the
street like that, unless they have a licensed perimeter
and they get a special permit.
And the same way with marijuana stores,
we do the same thing. You have to be a certain age to
walk inside the establishment, etc.
That's just what I'm trying to say. It
just seems this would be contrary if we went the other
way. If we're going to do something like that, it
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should be -- I don't want Fort Collins to be a strip
club. I want there to be a strip club somewhere else.
Not Fort Collins becoming one.
MAYOR TROXELL: Now, please. Council --
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: That's the end
of my questions.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Okay. Gino?
COUNCILPERSON CAMPANA: Thanks, Mayor.
I make a motion that we approve on first reading
Ordinance No. 134-2015, utilizing Option 1 with one
caveat. I would like to add the definition of a breast
similar to Loveland; that being female breasts below
the top of the nipple or something along those lines
that I -- I defer to you for proper legal terms for
that.
MAYOR TROXELL: Motion. Is there a
second?
COUNCILPERSON CUNNIFF: I'll second it.
MAYOR TROXELL: A motion and second.
Any further discussions regarding the motion?
Gino, do you want to follow up?
COUNCILPERSON CAMPANA: Well, I'll say,
first of all, thank you for everyone coming out tonight
and the emails and the phone calls. There's many times
where we sit up here for five, six hours after reading
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several inches of -- of material and at times, you
scratch your head and think, What am I doing up here?
And I learned a lot tonight. I've
learned a lot through this issue.
The first time I was emailed on this
issue, I thought it was just a random email and it was
going to go away. And I've had many discussions with
my own family and friends and community members about
it and, at a bare minimum, I think that it's brought
people together in talking about what we cherish in
Fort Collins and who we want to be in Fort Collins.
I think the dialogue should continue.
There's obviously some -- some drive behind it. I'm
shocked 40 percent of our city has taken this --
40 percent of the people who have taken the survey have
thought that going -- women going topless in our
community is a good idea.
So there -- there's something behind
that. And clearly, based on the ordinances that we've
reviewed of other communities, there's been a lot of
dialogue on this and a lot of controversy and a lot of
work that's gone into it. And frankly, even when I
read our State statute, I'm not sure I even understand
it after reading it 20 times over while I was reviewing
this topic.
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So I don't think it's going to go away.
I think it's going to continue to be here. I think
there was a lot of really good comments here tonight.
Some, I agree with; some, I don't.
I do think we are -- are evolving as a
community and as a nation and this is where we're at
tonight is, you know, what we want to do with this
ordinance. And I think by -- I think it was a good
exercise. I think adding breast-feeding is good. I
support that. And I also think that clearly defining
"breast" makes sense, as well.
So the effort will be -- you know,
bear -- bear fruit for all the work that has gone into
it, so thanks for coming out tonight and all your work
that you guys did on it at City.
MAYOR TROXELL: Kristin.
COUNCILPERSON STEPHENS: Thank you. I
want to echo what Gino just said. I want to thank
everybody who came out tonight and spoke. It's -- I
think we make better decisions on Council when we have
more public engagement and people involved, so I
appreciate everybody coming out. And a lot of emails.
You gave us a lot of emails to read. Thank you. A lot
of phone calls.
But, you know, I do think we make better
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decisions when the whole community is involved with
helping make these decisions.
That being said, one of the questions
that was asked was why are we talking about this? And
I think it is important to talk about issues that
are -- that are sometimes uncomfortable for us or -- or
have some controversy because there are different
opinions out there, and I think it's good to hear from
different opinions. Even within the people that didn't
support changing the rule, you know, different opinions
on why -- why they came here tonight.
So I also want to thank the Womens
Commission and the Human Relations Commission for
weighing in. You know, I -- it definitely gave us
different things to think about it as we -- as we look
at this issue.
I do understand that some people think
this is discriminatory towards women, so I think
it's -- it's very important to validate that some
people do find this current law discriminatory. But I
also understand that people -- other people in the
community and more people in the community value
modesty in our community.
It's clear to me as a representative of
District 4, of my district and of the community, that
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people don't want Option 2. 60 percent of the people,
that's a pretty resounding no for Option 2. And the
people who came tonight also expressed that same view.
So while I respect everyone's view who
came out here tonight to speak on this difficult topic,
I will be supporting the Option 1, as Gino has said.
And thank you again. I do encourage the
women that have come out here and are interested in
supporting equal rights for women that they continue to
work on women's issues. There's a lot of women's
issues out there and -- that could use your support:
Equal pay, more representation in City Government of
women. And so I -- so I encourage many of the people
that are here and especially the people that worked on
this issue to take your passions and work on -- work on
some of those issues, as well. Thank you.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you, Kristin.
Anybody else?
I'll make my comments. It -- you know,
I really appreciate this coming forward. Basically,
this came forward from a Council members' listening
session and brought it forward.
And it -- it has been a difficult issue
and it's one of those issues that, you know, I also
understand what people have been saying, if this is --
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is this really a problem? And -- and I -- I can
understand that sort of thing. But, you know, I think
it really speaks well of this Council of bringing
things forward.
This is our real first discussion on
this particular topic, as well, where, oftentimes, we
have a lot of -- a number of work sessions leading up
to a policy decision, so, you know, I really credit the
Council for being out and listening to citizens.
And also, I want to thank everyone that
has been writing emails and also here tonight and
speaking tonight, and -- and frankly, I think the
message is loud and clear.
You know -- you know, I also met with
the proponents and -- and in particular, Brittany
and -- and one of the things that she had a hard time
articulating, at least to me is -- is -- in your best
outcome, what do you see and it really -- she couldn't
articulate it in a way that -- and so, you know, gender
equity, and -- and -- and which I'm fully supportive,
is not gender neutrality, at least in my mind, and --
and I don't see those as being equal in -- in terms of
the discussion we're having here tonight.
Another thing that was compelling for me
are the strong statements made by women throughout our
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community. Things about decency, enjoyment of our
community, a sense of family, valuing humans and -- and
family and community and high-functioning families,
things such as that.
And that is a value of our community,
and I appreciate those that came out tonight and spoke
to -- to those points.
Also, I think, through this, we've
examined our current -- current ordinances and I -- you
know, we've, I think, made them defensible, where they
needed to be and -- and this particular option, I
think, has improved what we currently have on the
books, so I will be supporting Option 1.
Ray, please.
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Yeah. I'm
sorry, Mayor. I didn't see it at that moment, but I
always like to give you the last say on that and I
think that's important. But the only thing I want to
make sure we add is the reason why I'm in -- so much
not in favor of Option 2 and I favor Option 1 is that
when we talk about our rights, whose rights are we
talking about? And the right to not be exposed to or
the right to expose yourself to people that don't want
it?
I mean, which ones are the rights? And
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that's a careful balancing act. And you can see, with
the people that came out today, taking away their
family life to come down here to try to set the tone of
how they want this community to go, what direction they
want this community to go. Just in the last two weeks,
I've talked to about 70 students -- CSU students -- and
asked them what they thought. Now, you would think
they would say, Yeah, baby. But they didn't.
80 percent of them. I'd say 80 percent said it's not
right.
Now, that's maturity. That tells you
that they're seeing something that just doesn't seem
right. They couldn't put their finger on it, but it
just didn't seem right. That's a good, common-sense
approach, and I'm glad we've got students that are
seeing that and that are thinking this way and thinking
the correct way in this sense.
But this is really about a community
thing and a community effort, right in that word
"community" is the word "unity." And we have to stay
together with what we want this community to be. What
I don't want to see is us pass something like this that
causes people from other communities to come here
because we're doing and, all of a sudden, we're exposed
to other people saying, We can go to Fort Collins and
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run around topless. I don't want that. That's not
what we're about.
So I'll be supporting Option 1.
MAYOR TROXELL: Jerry, please.
MAYOR PRO TEM HORAK: A couple things.
One, I want to commend Brittany for having the courage
to bring this forward originally as well as to speak
tonight to a crowd who was predominantly not in her
favor who also applauded a number of times for their
points but didn't applaud for other points as much.
So it's great to applaud, but in this
chamber, it's not really what's supposed to happen.
It's supposed to give everybody the equal right to
speak, not being intimidated. And that's important to
remember. So if you were on the other side tonight,
you might not have enjoyed it as much when people are
doing that.
But I respect everyone coming out and
giving their viewpoint. I -- what I think has been
forgotten and the Mayor alluded to some and I will say
the media certainly has sensationalized. The only word
that's been sensationalized is "topless." It didn't
deal with that we had an antiquated ordinance which
couldn't be defended very well in court. We've taken
that ordinance -- because of Brittany and her folks,
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taken a better look at that to make sure it can be
defended and does deal with actually what the intent of
the ordinance was. That's been totally lost in -- in
the -- in some of the comments tonight.
We had some comments tonight saying we
shouldn't change it. Well, not changing it would not
really be smart. That would be -- we'd be left where
we were for something somebody did 20, 30, 40 years
ago, whenever it was previously passed.
So I think it's important to remember
that discussion of ideas in public doesn't make them
bad. It doesn't make them, Why are you talking about
that? It's like that's the idea of democracy. You get
to talk about many different things.
And the amount of staff time or effort
that went into this was very small. The amount of
Council time that went into it and citizen time was
probably much greater, which is exactly -- on this
topic, is exactly where it should be.
And yeah, I was the Council member who
had the listening session that Brittany was there and
brought up this topic back -- I can't remember if it
was February -- around that time frame. And if you
really look at her argument and you can -- you know,
it's great what the community wants. I don't disagree
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with that for what the community wants here, but it's
not an irrational argument. I mean, it's fairly
rational. It's just that society today, where we are,
that's not where we are. But if we were in 1900, where
we are would be women with their ankles covered, going
swimming with things on which we would find to be
absurd.
Things change over time. And I think
that was her overall point, that we have to keep
looking at what are our laws and where they are and
making sure they're fair for all. Not just for the
majority, but actually fair for all, no matter what the
majority thinks.
That's what the Supreme Court regularly
rules on. They rule on when laws done by people like
us up here and state legislators are unconstitutional
because they don't give equal protection.
MAYOR TROXELL: Thank you. Ross.
COUNCILPERSON CUNNIFF: Just real
briefly. Thanks, Jerry, and thanks, Gino, and everyone
who has spoken. And thank you to the community who
came out. We think it was really important for us to
understand where the community was on this. I was one
of the Council members that asked for this to be
considered because of the issues that were raised and I
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think it is important for us to make a change and I do
support Option 1.
I also particularly support the
exemption for breast-feeding. Our society has changed
and has recognized the importance of that to the
healthy development of infants and for the need for
that to be supported in our society, so I think it's
good for us to be moving in that direction. I'll be
supporting Option 1.
MAYOR TROXELL: Anyone else? So we're
voting on Option 1 of -- of No. 18. And with
additional language which we don't have yet but will be
part -- do we? Would you state that, please?
MS. DAGGETT: The language which is
projected up on the screen is in Subsection B, which
states no female who is 10 years of age or older shall
knowingly appear in any public place with her breast
exposed -- I've added the language below the top of the
nipple -- "while located" -- and then it goes on with
the ordinance as printed.
MAYOR TROXELL: Okay. So is that clear
to Council? Okay. So with the additional language.
So it's Option 1 with additional language. Any further
questions? Roll call, please.
CITY CLERK: Cunniff?
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COUNCILPERSON CUNNIFF: Yes.
CITY CLERK: Martinez?
COUNCILPERSON MARTINEZ: Yes.
CITY CLERK: Overbeck?
COUNCILPERSON OVERBECK: Yes.
CITY CLERK: Campana?
COUNCILPERSON CAMPANA: Yes.
CITY CLERK: Stephens?
COUNCILPERSON STEPHENS: Yes.
CITY CLERK: Horak?
MAYOR PRO TEM HORAK: Yes.
CITY CLERK: Troxell?
MAYOR TROXELL: Yes. So the motion
passes. Thank everyone for coming out tonight and
appreciate that.
We'll move on to item No. 19.
(There were further proceedings had, not
transcribed herein.)
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C E R T I F I C A T E
STATE OF COLORADO )
) ss
COUNTY OF ARAPAHOE )
I, Bonnie Carpenter, do hereby certify
that the above recorded proceedings were reduced to
typewritten form under my supervision;
That the foregoing is a true and
correct transcript of the recording then and
there taken done to the best of my ability under the
circumstances;
That I am not kin or in anywise
associated with any of the parties to said cause of
action or their counsel and that I am not interested
in the event thereof;
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
set my hand and seal this _____ day of ____________,
2016.
_____________________________
Bonnie Carpenter
12510 East Iliff
Suite 120
Aurora, CO 80014
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