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HomeMy WebLinkAboutGolf Board - Minutes - 06/14/1995• CITY OF FORT COLLINS CULTURAL, LIBRARY, AND RECREATIONAL SERVICES GOLF BOARD CITY COUNCIL LIAISON TO THE BOARD: Councilman Bob McCluskey, Jr. STAFF SUPPORT TO THE BOARD: Jerry P. Brown, Manager of Golf and Alyce Nierman, Golf Division Secretary. MINUTES: Special Meeting of June 14, 1995 The meeting was called to order at 7:30 p.m. at the Collindale Golf Course Clubhouse by Golf Board President Henry Fry. AGENDA REVIEW AND ITEMS OF NOTE: There were no changes to the printed agenda. Jerry P. Brown informed the Golf Board that Mary Hodge will be unable to attend tonight's meeting as she is out of town, and Frank Blanco will be a little late and should arrive by 8:00 p.m. Also, the meeting tonight is being audio taped, which will be available for the two new Golf Board appointees for background information. Henry Fry stated that a request was received to deviate from the printed agenda. Board members feel that the agenda should be followed and if there is time at the end of the meeting the requested issue will be addressed. Henry then requested that citizens speaking tonight address the four specific topics as they are brought up for input. Each person wishing to speak on a specific topic will be allowed up to five minutes to present their ideas. PUBLIC INPUT MEETING ON GOLF FEES AND CHARGES A: PRIME TIME/NON-PRIME TIME HOURS Ory Riddle spoke of his concerns on prime time as it is set up now. He is not sure that as much time is needed for prime time as currently is allotted. Mr. Riddle suggested that prime time be moved up to 8:30 a.m. on Fridays. He is not sure how much play the courses are receiving, but wonders if there really is enough demand for prime time before 10:30 a.m. Dick Ward rose and stated he is a member of a group that has presented a report suggesting a general frame work for the full fee structure. One portion of this report addresses the prime and non -prime time issue. Practices adopted in one case will affect what is done in other areas. However, they would like to see prime time eliminated, and in its place offer restricted pass use whereby certain passes would be allowed to play during certain times. Copies of the whole approach suggested by the group are available for review by those people who are interested. Golf Board Special Meeting June 14, 1995 Page 2 Louis Scharf, co-author of the report referred to by Dick Ward, apologized for not having enough copies for everyone present tonight, but will make copies available to anyone expressing an interest. It is not possible to talk about prime and non -prime without discussing the whole picture. Mr. Scharf requested time at the end of the meeting to discuss the integrated whole. He thinks the report is against a distinction between prime and non -prime time as that is basically unfair to working men and women. A little imagination can generate additional funds from other more equitable sources. Charles Hoffman feels that annual pass holders should play during the week and leave other "prime times" for those who work. Louis Scharf commented that his report opposes the idea of a different rate structure for prime and non -prime. They are actually proposing two different annual passes, and still have different play structures. B: ANNUAL PASS PER PLAY FEES Harvey Riley plays numerous rounds of golf stating it is his only recreation as a senior. Mr. Riley would like to see the annual pass continued, but wants to pay a fair market value up front, and does not want to pay a user fee each time he comes to play golf. Jim VanDeVelde has checked with several other courses along the front range for their annual pass cost (Loveland, Longmont, Denver) and quoted those prices. Further, Mr. VanDeVelde feels the doubling of the per play fee is outrageous. Joanne Mullins commented that she has played for many years, and has seen the per play fees doubling each year. In addition, she feels it is time to get over the SouthRidge situation, and the use of annual passes should be equal at each course. Dick Ward noted that the per play fee issue was addressed in the total proposal, and presented the different options that are explained in their proposal. Louis Scharf referred to the economic analysis of their report, stating that higher per play fees generate ill will. In addition, receiving up -front money helps with operating revenue and offsets some loss of play due to bad weather. Their report is advocating minimal or zero per play fees with larger up -front fees. Most golfers who are supportive of this plan are long-time players at City Park Nine and Collindale. Kelly Ohlson is concerned and came here tonight to listen and learn. Further, Mr. Ohlson fully supports the City providing assistance to those who don't have the money to play. However, he raised the concern of many people stating that 97% of the golfing senior citizen population can afford to pay full fees and wonders why the City assists them? Instead Mr. Ohlson would like to see monies go to single moms, kids, etc. rather than having policies that encompass all seniors. Perhaps we are not reaching out to those who should be subsidized. Golf Board Special Meeting June 14, 1995 Page 3 Hugh Winn, referring to Mr. Ohlson's comment, feels we should look at the profile and the number of people who can afford to play golf. Earl Stafford has observed that between 8:30 a.m. and 10:30 a.m. there are not enough players on the courses as golfers are waiting until 10:30 to receive the fee break. Ron Stanfield voiced his support for Mr. Ohlson's comments. A golfer who plays is taking up space on the golf course, and when discounts are offered to one group other groups have to make up the difference. By subsidizing one group, charges for regular players have to be raised to get the same revenue. Louis Scharf, in response to discounts, feels this should not be turned to a discussion of class, age, etc. The question of separations can be eliminated by offering different passes with restrictions on the time of play. He then stated that we are trying to make a point that we don't have to sound like we are against any particular group. C: MULTI -TIER ANNUAL PASSES Eddie Faillace finds the present system OK, and he has figured that his cost runs about $4.00 for a round of golf. It appears by those in attendance tonight that the people who are most concerned are senior golfers. He agrees with the multi -tier pass as it allows the golfer the option of choosing the time and type of pass best for them. Further, he declared that golfers have a great deal in Fort Collins. He also stated he feels the Golf Board does a great job. Harvey Riley agreed with the concept of a multi -tier pass system. If this path is chosen we should charge a fair amount and not have the golfer deal with extra fees. Ron Stanfield stated his support of the multi -tier pass idea; especially if it includes SouthRidge and pass holders can play whatever course they choose. Glen Weaver supports this idea wholeheartedly. Henry Fry asked for a show of hands of those in favor of this type of system. The majority of the citizens present approve of the concept of multi -tier passes. Harvey Riley added that if this plan is chosen, let the golfing community know in advance. D: RESIDENT/NON-RESIDENT FEES Jess James stated that since the majority of cities charge more for non-resident golfers, our Golf Board should face the facts and install a non-resident fee. Mr. James feels that we are not tapping a source of income. Harvey Riley agreed. Questions were raised on who would be classified as a resident, and it was responded by a citizen Golf Board Special Meeting June 14, 1995 Page 4 present that "resident" should include anyone who lives in Larimer County. Jess James urged the Golf Board to get away from provincial thinking as we are no longer a little village. Dick Ward thinks it is fine idea; however, Loveland did charge an additional fee for non-residents and their play dropped. They have since dropped the non-resident charge. Louis Scharf endorses the punch card idea. That may be a way to give cost breaks to residents by not selling punch cards to non-residents. Earl Stafford noted that the City of Windsor does not have a golf course and his grandson, who lives in Windsor, comes to Fort Collins to play golf Mr. Stafford feels we could lose some play if non- resident fees are set. At this point Henry Fry asked for a straw poll of people present tonight who would be in favor of higher daily green fees for non-resident golfers, based on a Fort Collins address. The majority of those present oppose higher fees for non-residents. Henry Fry commented that the Golf Board has heard criticism in the past regarding establishment of fees and the fee structure and decided to start early this year to obtain citizen input before the full budget process for 1996 begins. Henry observed that the time was 8:20 p.m. and comments from people who had registered had been received on the four specific topics for the fee structure. The floor was then opened for discussion and additional new comments. It was requested by one citizen present that a news release be made or a story be written stating that golfers pay fully for the operations and expenses of the courses. Harold Timm would like to see prime time eliminated entirely and charge only one fee straight through for pass use. Doug Wyffels wondered if we could go back to the previous policy and charge the full fee up front and get the revenue early in the year. It seems that year -after -year we are losing pass holders. Would there be a possibility of doing a mailing to reach out to previous pass holders to see if they are interested in returning? Don Hardy wanted to make only one comment, that it appears unfair when a golfer tees off and pays prime time rates, plays half of an 18-hole round and finishes the round in non -prime time. Leah Roark stated that we have heard a lot of very good comments this evening. She was curious what the per play fee goes toward in funding? She would rather pay up front. As to the non-resident Golf Board Special Meeting June 14, 1995 Page 5 fees, a person gets upset when they are charged more than another person buying the same item. Why would we want to antagonize people? Jess James feels the per play fee is just "nickel and dimming" golfers. We should charge one fee and let them go. After the additional citizen comments, Louis Scharf reviewed the ideas their group put together. Their intent was to design a fee structure for the devoted players, as well as the casual players, and try to balance the budget needs. Mr. Scharf applauds the Golf Board and stated there is no doubt that the Board and Mr. Brown have the best interest of golf at heart though they based their decision on inaccurate data. It was first felt that daily green fees need to be set. The current pass system should be replaced with a time restricted pass with unrestricted play. It was further advocated that the per play fee be no more than $1.00 per 9 holes (if at all) with a higher upfront fee. One additional main point was the recommendation to eliminate the prime and non -prime rate structure. Examples, figures, and percentages were then reviewed. - Jerry P. Brown stated that City Council is planning to announce the new appointments to the Golf Board at next Tuesday night's meeting. The tape recording of tonight's meeting and the 12 additional comments received by fax or mail will be reviewed by the Board. The steps on how citizens can apply for appointment to City boards and commissions were reviewed. - A citizen present asked if SouthRidge will ever be considered a City golf course? Henry Fry stated that SouthRidge is currently owned, managed, and operated by the City. -- Jess James is in full support of junior golf in Fort Collins, and would like the Board to comment on junior programs. Henry Fry responded that the Golf Board is totally in support of junior golf and will do whatever possible to encourage junior players. -- Jerry P. Brown made an announcement on the Fort Collins Women's City Golf Championship Tournament and Lise Gaussman Scholarship Fund to be held July 15 and 16 at Collindale and SouthRidge. The City is in full support of this tournament. - Frank Blanco is glad this meeting was scheduled in June to get ideas and comments from citizens. Everything stated will be considered. Tom White feels very good that we are starting this process several months early and getting prior golfer input rather than trying to make decisions blind. Mindy Markley thanked everyone in attendance this evening and the comments and concerns they shared with the Board. She feels confident that we can now move forward. Tom DeGrand agrees. He is glad there is a large group of people attending tonight. He asked that the people attending tonight remember that Board members are also golfers, and we are Golf Board Special Meeting June 14, 1995 Page 6 trying to do what is best for golf in Fort Collins. Any input is well received. ADJOURNMENT On a motion from Tom White and a second by Mindy Markley the meeting adjourned at 9:40 p.m. Respectfully submitted, Alyce Nieman, Secretary III Golf Division Meeting Attendance BOARD MEMBERS STAFF Henry Fry Frank Blanco Tom DeGrand Armon Johannsen Mindy Markley David Shands Tom White GUESTS Jerry P. Brown Joe Nance Alyce Nierman Jim Greer Mike Powers Dale Smigelsky Councilman Bob McCloskey, Jr. Eldon Reutter Bob Adleman Ory Riddle David Bishop H. R. Riley Jack Bowman Leah Roark Bill Brown Mike Snders Jim Burkett Louis Scharf Byrd Curtis John Schmidt Bill Dishon Jason Schram John F. Drescher Earl Stafford Ed Faillace Ron Stanfield Ted Halasinski Wil Stutheit Don Hardy Harold E. Syas John Hess Betty Tapply Chuck Hoffman Harold Timm Jess James Inez Tomlinson Wayne Kershner Jim VanDeVelde Wayne Linton Jack Mercer Joanne Mullins Suzanne Nance Kelly Oblson Julie VanDeVelde Dick Ward Glen Weaver J. Hugh Winn Doug Wyffels