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HomeMy WebLinkAboutGolf Board - Minutes - 04/16/2003City of Fort Collins Cultural, Library, and Recreational Services Golf Board Minutes: Regular Meeting of April 16, 2003 Council Liaison to the Board: Councilman Bill Bertschy Staff Support to the Board: Jerry P. Brown, Manager of Golf at 221.6350, and Stacy Kelley, Administrative Aide at 416.2265 Call Meeting to Order: Chairperson Dave Johnson called the meeting to order at 7:05 p.m. Agenda Review: No changes to the printed agenda. Items of Note: ♦ Board members Mindy Markley and Bill Rutledge notified us that they would be unable to attend this meeting. ♦ Reminder that starting next month meetings will begin at 7:30 p.m. ♦ City Park Nine is behind about 2 weeks due to the snowstorm. The Contractor is scheduled to be sodding around May 9`'', and full play is expected after Memorial Day. Approval of Minutes: On a motion by Mike Sanders and seconded by Claire Nelms, the Board voted unanimously (6:0) to approve the Minutes of the March 26, 2003 Regular Meeting, as rescheduled from March 19, 2003. (Manny Jiminez arrived shortly after the vote). Citizen Participation: No Citizen Participation at this time. Public Input/Comments on the Golf Board's Preliminary Recommendation of the Golf Fees and Charges for 2004: Jerry explained to the Board and to the citizens present that Board Members Mindy Markley and Bill Rutledge were unable to attend the meeting but would like to hear the citizen's input about Fees and Passes. For this reason the public input/comment part of the meeting will be taped. Dave Johnson said that his opinion and vote about the fees and charges has changed since the previous March 26`h Board meeting. He said his decision was without his heart. First he wanted to let the Board know that Junior Golf played a major role in how successful he is today. He received a golf scholarship and was able to get a degree and become a Golf Professional. Dave said the Senior golfers usually play during Non -Prime Times and are not impacting the Prime Time golfer. Dave also thinks that the pass players help keep the golf courses open during the off season. Without the pass players there would be little play during the winter. Dave said he would like to see only Restricted Passes available during the prime golf season and Unrestricted Passes during the off- season. He thinks the rates should be increased or modified with the amount up for discussion. He also would like to look at the options for Super Seniors age 75+. Golf Board Minutes April 16, 2003 Byrd Curtis asked Mike Sanders what justification did he have to eliminate passes. He wanted to know Mike's reasoning. Mike Sanders responded that the purpose of this meeting is for the Board to listen to the citizen's input and not for the Board to justify their Preliminary Recommendation. Dave explained the decision is up to each individual Board Member whether or not they would like to respond to questions. Wil Stutheit said the Board received input at the February meeting and now it is time that the citizen's receive input from the Board. None of the golfers have received any reasons why the Board should eliminate Annual Passes. Larry Buckendorf responded that the statement made by Wil was incorrect. The Board met for 2 hours last month to discuss their Preliminary Recommendation and there were very few citizens in attendance. The Board spent a lot of time discussing the issue of eliminating Annual Passes and there were many proposals. Wil said the information from that meeting never got back to the public. Larry said the meetings are open to the public so anyone could have attended to hear the Board's discussion. Jerry explained that the Minutes from the March meeting will be posted on the City of Fort Collins Web site at www.fcgov.com/cityclerk/golf.php. The Board's Preliminary Recommendation was also published in the Coloradoan three times and the Fort Collins Weekly once. Wil wanted a synopsis for the reasons why the Board decided to eliminate Annual Passes. Dave said each of the Board members have their reasons why they voted the way that they did. Jerry said the primary reason the Board is making their Preliminary Recommendation to eliminate Annual Passes is because of fairness and equity. Annual Passes were implemented in another era and no longer make good business or financial sense. John Gausman works at Collindale. He said that as an adult golfer, Annual Passes don't really affect him but he wanted to speak to the issue anyway. He believes that the reason golf is so successful in Fort Collins for our Juniors is because of Annual Passes. He said if you research the high school golfers most of them are pass holders. He feels that the pass provides a significant discount and the Junior who loves to play golf should be able to play as much as possible and the pass holders are the golfers that keep golf going. He feels very passionate that the pass holders are the golfers that are sustaining business over the winter months. He thinks that by eliminating Annual Passes the Board is booting out the golfers who love to play. Annual Passes are a positive way that the local government can reward it's citizens. For the past 20 years that he has worked at Collindale he has never seen someone not get a tee time because of an Annual Pass card holder. The reason to eliminate passes because of equity is invalid because a non -pass holder can reserve a tee time just the same as a pass holder can. He thinks that if an Annual Pass card holder wants to take the risk that he will be able to play at least 50 rounds to make the pass worthwhile that should be his choice. Judith Buddenbaum made her plea to the Board to keep Junior passes in some kind of form. She explained that her family was in the low middle class and she would scrape every penny for her son to get a Junior pass because he loved to golf. Golf was good to her son David. The game allowed her son to stay out of trouble, remain in school, and to become a successful teacher. She was able to go back to school herself and did not have to worry about her son getting into trouble because he was on the golf course playing golf. Golf financially and emotionally was a good investment for her son David. Even with the discounts that are being proposed, she would not have been able to afford as many rounds that David wanted to play. Dwain Bloyer said he is not a Senior and not 17 or under. He and his wife have been Annual Pass card holders every year since they moved to Fort Collins. Last year, at City Park Nine and Golf Board Minutes April 16, 2003 Collindale, they spent $1,590.00 on passes and surcharge fees plus $150 for league fees and over $300 in the Pro Shops. He admitted to playing many rounds of golf but if the Board eliminated Annual Passes he and his wife would be forced to play less because they are on a fixed income. They golf with other golfers that prefer to play in the leagues at SouthRidge but because they know he and his wife can't afford it, they play at Collindale. If the Board eliminates Annual Passes Dwain and his wife will explore other courses in the area. Dwain said that even though they live close to SouthRidge they still drive across town to play at Collindale and City Park Nine. Because of the Restricted passes they only play during the week and spend time at their cabin on the weekends. They would prefer playing golf on the weekends and spending time at their cabin during the week. If passes are eliminated they will play on the weekends at SouthRidge and won't play at the other two courses. He believes that the Board in the late 60's made their decision to have Annual Passes also because of comradery, not just to attract golfers. Michael McDarnry said the main reason he moved here 8 years ago from California was because of the reasonable golf fees. He feels that the Annual Pass players feel like their loyalties are being shunned and disregarded. He has a daughter that he plays golf with. By eliminating Annual Passes he will have to make a decision whether he plays golf, she plays golf, or if either of them can play. Those who buy passes play more often than those who only pay once a month and they should not be penalized. Pat Fry grew up here and was a Junior golfer. He would play from sun up to sun down which he wouldn't have the opportunity to do without passes. Passes allow Juniors to play golf without having cash on hand to play. He feels that the Junior golfers have been the powerhouses for the city golf program. Pat explained playing golf paid for his college education. Juniors shouldn't have to pay more during Non -Prime Times. Rex Smith said that golf being an Enterprise Fund already pays its own way and the Board should allow the golfers to play with passes. With the issue of fairness Rex feels that golfers pay more into the community than other sports which are being subsidized. Tom Balchak said he has never been to a Board meeting and would like to thank the Board Members for their service on the Board. He started loving golf in his later years and since then has joined the City Park Nine Men's League, buying a golf pass, and becoming a member of the United States Golf Association. He said that not only do pass members benefit the city financially but pass holders are more likely to be a role model as to how to take care of the course and they show others the etiquette of the game and faster play. The Board should look at the customer. He used the analogy that he can buy a ski pass for $299 but potentially can't buy a $514 Golf pass in his own city. The Board should look at this fee structure in the context of who are the courses best customers and the loyalty of those customers. Carl Carrillo has been a Fort Collins resident since 198C and didn't previously buy annual passes because he likes to play other courses but he has had a pass for the past two years and has benefited from it. He guarantees that he has spent more money the last two years than before he had a pass. He is the only one in his circle of friends that has a pass and because they know it is more affordable for him to play in Fort Collins, they play here as well. One Sunday he came out to play golf and because they had a tournament, he bought a bucket of balls, sandwich, and drink and instead of paying $3.00 he paid $20.00 and didn't play any golf. He said that if the Board eliminates passes he Golf Board Minutes April 16, 2003 would go back to visiting other courses. He thinks the fees should be more affordable for Junior and Senior golfers. Neal Carson and his wife have been citizens of Colorado for 53 years. When they retired 17 years ago they took up golf and it has been extremely beneficial for their health. They have enjoyed using the Restricted passes. Neal's physician was thrilled that he and other Seniors were able to golf as much as they do. Dale Wolaver has lived in Fort Collins since 1972. He disagrees that eliminating passes makes good business and financial sense. He stated that he doesn't usually attend Board meetings but was at the February meeting and the citizens that were there were in agreement that the Board should not eliminate passes. He asked if there was a constituency that supports the Boards recommendation? Dave Johnson said the final vote has not been made and the Board is here to listen to the public's opinion. Dale doesn't think the Board is supporting the golfer's best interest and opinions. H.R. Riley agreed with Dale. He asked the Board if they have polled the golfers? He said he did and there is a majority vote in the audience to keep Annual Passes. He said when he was in Wisconsin he only played during the prime times and in the Fall he went hunting, but now that he lives here his golf clubs are in his car 365 days a year. If the Board eliminates Annual Passes he will not play here and neither will his friends. He said that if the golfers wanted a Punch Pass they would go to Mountain Vista where the fees are cheaper, and they don't have to deal with goose droppings. He said everyone in the audience has the same opinion but they're afraid to speak. Dave Mitchell said golf passes allow the golfer to play more. Sometimes he only plays 7 holes. Most of the time he plays only 9-hole rounds. The 18-hole golfer gets a better discount so the 9- hole round golfer is essentially getting penalized even though they are only playing 50 rounds a year. Buford Plemmons didn't really play golf until he retired. He explained that golf is beneficial both medically and emotionally. When people get into the Senior age group sometimes the only socialization they have is at the doctors and funerals. He said the people he plays golf with don't take rounds away from Green Fee players. He said the only time his group of friends don't play is when the weather is below 40 degrees which means they play a lot of golf. He said the reason why pass purchases are down is because of construction in the past few years but give them time and the pass purchases will be back up with the nice facility that we have now. Don Braun said he doesn't know of any successful businesses where their best customers are cast aside. He works for Wal Mart and they do a lot more business than Kmart because their prices are lower and that brings more people and more money. He stated that there isn't any public support mandating the elimination of passes. The pass holders paid roughly $272,000 in fees in 2002 and if you eliminate passes the Board should be able to show where that revenue is going to come from. He feels the city should promote and advertise Annual Passes to get more golfers to buy passes and fill the golf courses with golfers. Frank Blanco was a Board member in the past and was bom and raised here. He is against eliminating Annual Passes and would like the Board to reconsider their vote. He also said the Board has a tough decision to make and thanked them for their hard work. 4 Golf Board Minutes April 16, 2003 Michael McDarnry asked what the problem was with Annual Passes if the City is making a profit? He thinks that the expenditure of the new Collindale Clubhouse was excessive and unneeded. Dave Johnson then asked if there were any other comments, and there wasn't. He thanked the citizens for their input. Jerry asked if the Board Members wanted to have any discussion amongst themselves. Claire Nelms wanted to let the citizens know that she did not vote to eliminate passes and they should write letters and talk to others to get their opinions heard. Claire said she understood that the Board was going to vote tonight. Dave clarified that because two of the Board Members couldn't be here that the Board would vote in May. There was a question from the audience whether or not the City was going to rebuild the greens at Collindale? Mike Enright heard that Mike Sanders made the comment that the greens would have to be replaced in 2 years. Mike Sanders clarified that he asked Randy Bonneville at the last meeting what the normal life expectancy was of greens and how much money it would take to replace them. Mike said at some point the greens would have to be replaced. Dave asked the Board to discuss his proposal. Grant Sherwood said he would like Dave to put his proposal in writing before the next meeting. Dave said his proposal was to keep Restricted passes for Monday through Thursday, Adult passes for $500, Seniors age 75+ and Juniors age 17 - for $250 and making the time from October 1" through April In with no restrictions. He feels that SouthRidge Per Play Fees should remain the same. Claire asked why he wanted to raise the fees when the Golf Fund isn't currently in the red. Dave said the fees need to be brought up to a more equitable state. He feels that our golf fees are among the lowest across the country. There was a question from the audience when the fees would be increased and Jerry said probably in 2005. Fees generally go up 7% every other year. Jerry mentioned that a round starts as soon as you leave the tee box. Mike explained that the average pass holder pays $10.89 per round but that there are some players who only pay $5.00 a round. He said the Golf Fund by choice is in debt by five million dollars. In the past there hasn't been any money set aside for capital improvements. He posed the question that if Annual Pass card holders are the courses best customers why do they expect the Green Fee players to subsidize their rounds. He expects that some players will have to play less rounds of golf. It was mentioned that the Board is going to make a decision based on the exception golfer not the average. Based on a question from the audience, Mike said he is a member of the Country Club and anyone can be a member. Michael McDamry asked why the City is allowing someone to be a Board Member when they play at the Country Club and don't play on city courses? Mike said that was a false statement. Dave explained to the audience that the purpose of the meeting was to listen to comments, not for the public to make personal attacks of the Board. Mike said that he was angry about how selfish some of the golfers were and that they weren't planning for the future of the courses. Many golfers are just out to play the cheapest rounds of golf that they can. Larry said that with the proposed fee structure the average golfer would be saving money. Michael McDarnry wanted to know what was wrong if he played 3 holes or nine? He is paying his dues and the City is making money when he only plays 3 holes. By playing 3 holes he isn't doing any damage to the course. He thinks that everyone has the same advantage to make a tee time. The Annual Pass card holder isn't taking away tee times from Green Fee players. Golf Board Minutes April 16, 2003 Larry feels that it is the Board's responsibility to make recommendations that benefit the community as a whole. He said it doesn't make fiscal sense that there are some people playing 100 to 200 rounds of golf per year and the Green Fee player is subsidizing their rounds. Mike said we have to put money away now for the future because borrowing money costs too much in interest. There was a question whether or not Dave's option has merit. Larry said he is still against Annual Passes but realizes Juniors and Seniors should have a larger discount. Larry also thinks that without Annual Passes, those tee times will still be taken by Green Fee players. Mike said there isn't anyone on the Board that thinks Juniors and Seniors shouldn't get reasonable discounts. Michael McDamry said if the Board eliminates Annual Passes people will not play as much golf if they play in Fort Collins at all. Keeping Annual Passes keeps those most frequent customers here in Fort Collins. He also asked why passes should be eliminated when the City is making the revenue needed to run the courses. Dave stated his opinion that Juniors really need some kind of pass option. They use the courses in the off-season. Larry asked Jim Greer if we didn't have Annual Pass players in the off season would there be a negative impact to his business? He said there could be some. Jerry reminded the Board that about 80% of the golf courses in Colorado do not have Annual Passes. Mike would entertain the idea of having Restricted passes for Juniors and Seniors age 75+. He realizes that rounds of play might go down for awhile but they will come back up. Larry said those pass players that say they won't play in Fort Collins will be back. Mike said he knows for a fact that many pass holders do not purchase anything from the golf courses. Claire said that the Women's League are cheap and don't buy a lot at the pro shops. Claire said she has earned the right to be able to golf 2 or 3 times a week and the Annual Passes allow her to do that. Mike said we have to start collecting reserves now for the future. He said as an example what if Claire being a retired school teacher didn't have retirement money put aside during the years that she taught? He said the courses could be full with tournaments so he isn't worried about losing a few golfers that have Annual Passes. Claire would be ok with the Restricted Passes Monday -Thursday. Jerry explained that Longmont, Greeley, and Loveland have passes and have courses that were built in the same era as Collindale. In Loveland Mariana Butte has a higher fee. Claire said that is because Mariana Butte is a much nicer course than what we have in Fort Collins. Jim Greer disagreed with Claire and Jerry said Mariana Butte fees are higher because of the construction debt service payments. Jerry has all the statistics why Annual Passes were started. To convince the council in the late 60's the Board knew that they had to have Annual Passes and we would be able to collect the money up front and have guaranteed numbers. Neither one of these reasons still remain today. Mike said the Board also needs to rethink the Punch Cards as a 20 percent discount is too high. Claire feels the fees shouldn't be higher than what golfers can pay. Larry said that those golfers who claim they are loyal and won't play if passes are eliminated they are not being loyal. Jerry said when the Foothills District voted to eliminate passes they took a hit for about a year. When these golfers start paying more at the other courses and drive 20-30 miles they will be back because Fort Collins fees are still more affordable. Five years ago there was a golfer who said he would never play here again if we had surcharges and that same golfer was playing here today. Jerry clarified that the Board can limit public discussion at the May meeting but if an item is on the Agenda the Board has to allow public comments. Grant would like to see Dave's proposal in 11 Golf Board Minutes Apri116, 2003 writing. He felt that it was unfair to vote on a proposal without seeing the details before the meeting. The Board agreed to send any written proposals to Jerry by May 7`h. Other Business: ♦ Jerry asked the Board for their approval of two memos to the City Manager stating the Board didn't have any requests to the Council's Policy Agenda for 2003-2005; and to reinstate the Boards' historic perspective for the 2004/2005 City Budget. There were no objections. ♦ Jerry informed the Board of the current water policy. ♦ Grant Sherwood said he didn't feel that it was appropriate for Board Members to contact Council Members about their conflicting opinions. ♦ Lauren DeRosa asked if it was a conflict of interest if Board Members had an Annual Pass to vote on the fees and structure of those passes? Jerry said in the past that it was not. Adjournment: Lauren DeRosa made a motion to adjourn at 10:15 p.m., seconded by Mike Sanders. Motion passed unanimously (7:0). Respectfully submitted, Stacy Kelley Administrative Aide Meeting Attendance: Board Members Larry Buckendorf Lauren DeRosa Manny Jiminez Dave Johnson Claire Nelms Grant Sherwood Mike Sanders Staff Jerry P. Brown Mike Enright Tom Fry Jim Greer Stacy Kelley Dale Smigelsky Guests Evie Barnes Tom Blachak Frank Blanco Dwain Bloyer Shawn Bloyer Warren Boizot Don Braun Judith Buddenbaum Carl Carrillo Neal Carson Nita Carson Byrd Curtis Forest Delinger Don Dietz Gil Fechner Stan Finn Pat Fry Doug Grant Fred Gonzales Guests Cont. John Guasman Shirley Hansen Lennie Jordan Glen Joachims Wayne Linton Harold McAuliffe Michael McDarnry Dave Mitchell Clay Mowers Don Nelson Charlie Ogren Mike Paine Marshall Petting Buford Plemmons Eldon Reutter Rick Rhoden H.R. Riley John Shelton Rex Smith Guests Cont. Wil Stutheit Wayne Thom Owen Vasby Dale Wolaver Peggy Wolaver Rich Wolvy Doug Wyffels Steve Zamzow Note: some citizens in the audience did not sign our attendance sheet.