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HomeMy WebLinkAboutNatural Resources Advisory Board - Minutes - 10/04/2000CA • MINUTES CITY OF FORT COLLINS NATURAL RESOURCES ADVISORY BOARD REULAR MEETING 281 N. COLLEGE October 4, 2000 For Reference: Randy Fischer, NRAB Chair - 491-6303 Bill Bertschy, Council Liaison - 484-0181 Tom Shoemaker, Staff Liaison - 221-6263 Board Members Present Reagan Waskom, Bill Miller, Nate Donovan, Linda Knowlton, Randy Fischer, Don Rodriguez Board Members Absent Phil Murphy, Kelly Ohlson Staff Present Natural Resources Dent: Tom Shoemaker, Terry Klahn, Edith Felchle, Mark Sears, Dave Irwin Guests Kelly Chase, CSU student Drew Hawk, CSU student Tad Stout, CSU student Jeff Fletcher, CSU student Ryan Fritzsche, CSU student Agenda Review No changes. Ranger Program Update, Edith Felchle Felchle introduced Dave Irwin, the new Natural Areas & Trails Ranger who began working for the City in July. Irwin is a Colorado State University graduate. He has worked for the state parks system as a ranger, for the Bureau of Land Management and the National Forest System. He came to the City of Fort Collins in July. He has been working on his own in the field for the past several weeks after completing his training and receiving his commission. Felchle said the Ranger Program has been around for two years now, and she is very pleased with the public acceptance of the program. There are instances where an individual may not be happy with their personal contact, but there has not been any major Natural Resources Advis Board October 4, 2000 Page 2 objection from the public at large. The public has been very accepting. It's very rewarding to hear about citizens thanking the rangers for their efforts. Discussion • Rodriguez: Do you have previous experience in law enforcement? • Irwin: I was a fully commissioned officer in South Dakota. • Donovan: What kind of training did you have here? • Irwin: I trained with the CSO's. If we need assistance we go through dispatch and officers are dispatched. • Fischer: I appreciate the memo and the graphs. The graphs were very interesting to me. • Waskom: Who collected the data that is on the graphs? The data are from ranger observations while on patrol. • Wasksom: Do you think that presence, uniform, or a truck in the parking lot, makes a difference? Yes, I think the presence of a uniform makes a huge difference. We're working to gather other data that isn't skewed by the presence of a ranger truck or uniform. We were pleased to see the percentages, but were surprised in some areas. Anecdotally, some people say they've seen a tremendous difference, which tells how things were before the ranger program. • Knowlton: You're doing a great job. Someone out of uniform might see more dogs off -leash, but having uniformed rangers around might encourage more people to keep their dogs on -leash. We've even had people tell us their friends have told them they better keep their dogs on leash because the rangers are around. • Rodriguez: As natural area use increases, do you see that people are more inclined to keep dogs on -leash? That's a very interesting question. In places where the right things were in place when the area was opened, such as Cathy Fromme Prairie, there is very impressive compliance data. It's easier to get compliance if you have things in place. At Pineridge, we're trying to change peoples' behavior, and that's much more difficult. • Shoemaker: Generally we're trying not to open a site until we have a site management plan and appropriate improvements in place. We've had Pineridge for twenty years but there wasn't a management plan until a few years ago. • Miller: At the Futures Committee the topic was raised that it would be valuable for future board members to have an annual report relating to compliance. In Craig, on the western slope, there is zero tolerance for dog bites. If a dog bites someone that dog is put down. It would be nice to be able to emphasize the financial obligations of someone who's dog causes an injury. I love the idea of this card (from the dog owners association). It's not the City of Fort Collins saying it, it's a dog owners association. We also need to educate people about the flushing distance of many species of wildlife. When an animal takes flight it's gone through stress prior to that. That's the breaking point of what the animal will tolerate. Damage is effected before the animal takes flight. I hope there's somewhere that topic can be brought into education. People need to understand what effect their dog has on other forms of wildlife. • Waskom: What is the status of FIDOS? Natural Resources Advisory Board October 4, 2000 Page 3 • Shoemaker: There's not been much communication lately. A lot of that is because when we met with them last there appeared to be an opportunity to receive a donation of land on Taft Hill Road. They said it's not all they wanted, but it's a good project. • Knowlton: I would like to compliment Edith again. I received a call from Kristen, who left a nice message. She gave me the cell phone numbers of all the rangers, she was very responsive. We know it's awkward to list three different numbers, but there's noway to have one number. Communication is by cell phone. • Waskom: How much time goes to response, as opposed to patrolling? There aren't very many contacts that require a response. • Waskom: So most of the public contact is in the natural areas? How often is it necessary to call for backup. Yes, most of the public contact is in the field. With the Rainbow Family in town this summer there has been a larger need for police backup. There have been a couple times where a contact for a dog off -leash has resulted in a need for back-up, but usually that doesn't happen. In the event of a vagrant situation, the rangers are trained to see a situation befbre contacting the person and get an armed officer there. • Donovan: Are the ten hour days in one stretch, or are they broken up. • Irwin: Most of the time it's in one stretch. • Donovan: This is a great memo. I'm struck by people going out early and late. Do you really think it's to avoid the rangers? Yes, we even have people call to see when the rangers will be on duty. We tell them we have a varied schedule, and they're out there all the time. There was an instance of a ranger contact at Pineridge on a day when the weather was bad. The person told the ranger they thought that on a day like this the rangers wouldn't be out. • Donovan: Is the term vagrant used a lot in the City organization? It's one I use. These are the people who come into and out of town on the freight trains. They may get into trouble in one community and move to another. Most of them have police records and are considered dangerous. • Donovan: Maybe transient would be a similar word? Yes, it might be similar. • Donovan: Vagrant connotes to me London in the 1800's, it's a negative connotation, like "these people aren't worth dirt". Maybe another word to describe them would be a good idea. I realize you have to deal with them, but that just jumped out at me. • Waskom: Transient would be a more common use. Do they have the right to be in the natural areas? They can't camp overnight, or have alcohol. Those are the two biggest things. • Waskom: But they can hang out there all day. Yes, that's not a violation as long as there's no alcohol. A lot of these people build tents, or whatever kind of structure they want. Often times we find weapons. • Donovan: Are they all along the river, or just in certain spots. • Irwin: There are definitely certain spots. Spots that are more hidden from the road. The other two rangers know the spots very well. We'll get a couple of them, they'll be gone for a while, and then they move back in. • Felchle: You may recall there was a rape involving a vagrant in the Gustav -Swanson Natural Area. That's a big reason why we pay such close attention to the vagrant situation. Natural Resources Advis Board October 4, 2000 Page 4 • Fischer: Is the patrolling having a positive affect? • Irwin: I talked to an officer who said the transients are saying they moved to the south end of town because the rangers are bothering them up north. It's definitely having an impact. • Rodriguez: Are we patrolling McMurray? Until we acquire it our laws don't apply, but the Rangers go through the area. • Fischer: Are you handing out a lot of these (cards)? They're attached to every warning and citation. They're also available in kiosks and brochures. • Fischer: I use the trail system a lot, and I haven't seen them become litter. I have seen some warnings on the trail. I would encourage you to do more. Maybe I give people too much credit, but I think 99% would comply if they understood the reasoning. • Fischer: How is the horse traffic in CFP? I saw "Roy and Dale" riding off into the sunset. • Sears: We do have someone who notoriously rides the CFP area. • Randy: On the east side of Taft Hill on CFP there's someone using the gate. It's looking like the start of a road. • Sears. We're not sure who it is going in and out. • Fischer: The gate is not much of a deterrent. • Sears: We can put a padlock on it. • Fischer: Jan Rastall gets up and runs early. She says a tremendous number of people are running dogs off leash and using closed trails at Pineridge between 6 a.m. and 8 a.m. in the morning. Some of those people may get a surprise visit. • Irwin: It's hard to decide what to do. There are a lot of transients. We thought it was more important to get them out. Now that the weather is changing we'll start patrolling the other areas earlier in the day. • Sears: Having the third ranger will help a lot. We'll have double coverage almost every day. That's going to make a big difference. • Waskom: Are there any plans for additional activities, such as education, or will there just be more patrolling? More patrolling is the need we feel is more important. The education component is under Sue Kenny's program. • Rodriguez: The rangers don't spend any time in the classroom? • Sears: There's a big impact on people with dogs off leash in the natural areas. They get an explanation. There's an opportunity for education. It's not just handing out tickets and cards. • Rodriguez: You get a lot of bang for the buck in the classroom. 99% of the public in this community don't know these folks exist. It's a conscious choice to not be in the classroom, it's a program efficiency decision. • Waksom: Do you deal with mountain bikes off trail? • Irwin: The mountain bikers have been pretty good. I've noticed that Todd sometimes will block off social trails with rocks, and sometimes when we come back the rocks are moved. Usually people will stay on the original trail. Natural Resources Afsory Board • October 4, 2000 Page 5 • Waskom: Earlier we discussed having a horse mounted ranger. Was a decision made on that? The decision was made that with the size of the program it wouldn't be efficient right now. • Fischer: I'm really happy to see the number of citations going up. That's what I've been waiting to see. Maybe it's not having as much impact as I thought it would, but I believe in holding people accountable, and being fair to the public. It looks like we're starting to get the numbers up there. • Fischer: At first I wasn't too enamored of the no -tolerance days, but maybe they work. I think this program is very good, being well run, and managed efficiently. • Donovan: How are repeat offenders tracked? Do you make a call to a data base? • Irwin: No, we can't call a data base. We have a box of warnings and summons. Also, you remember people you've dealt with in the past. It's not a great way, but right now it's the only way. • Felchle: We'd have to have our own data base. The police department has a lot of demands, there are certain things we just can't do to increase their work load. • Miller: Has there been much patrolling of Riverbend Ponds? There's a lot of fishing line in the weeds. The rangers do educational contact. We don't have the data to say what the impact is. There are interpretative features advising people of the problems. • Fishcer: My wife and I adopted Pineridge. All of the fishing line we pickup really bothers me. Do you patrol the north end of Dixon? We can have a presence but we can't enforce the law. • Fischer: Last winter was mild so there wasn't a lot of sledding. But, I did actually see a guy remove some of the bottom rungs of buck and rail so he could go under the fence. We are committed to providing one place for sledding. We moved the site due to some liability issues. There are signs directing people to the new place. Natural Areas Easement Policies, Mark Sears Shoemaker said the information in the packet included a memo from Randy Fischer and a memo from Mark Sears. Fischer's information tends to deal more with policy questions while Sears' information pertains more to procedure. The goal is that the two will come together and create a product that is clear in terms of policy and process. Tonight my hope is to listen, and maybe ask some questions for clarification. Discussion • Waskom: Do we have any burning issues in terms of requests? Yes, we do have a number of outstanding requests. Coyote Ridge hasn't gone away. There's a new request from Boxelder. Our plan is to get the policies in shape and get them in front of Council. The short answer is yes, there is some urgency. • Fischer: What's the status of the one we discussed in August? Fossil Creek Wetland was approved by Council, but they've decided not to pursue construction right now. • Miller: I would like to see a marriage of Randy's ideas plus Mark's processes. The citizens of Fort Collins didn't tax themselves to set areas that make development possible by providing a logical place to run a sewer line. The policy needs to make it fiscally obvious to the developer they need to find some other way to get from point Natural Resources Advis Board October 4, 2000 Page 6 A to point B without crossing a natural area. We need to look at "cost effective alternatives", and what defines cost effective. • Shoemaker: We won't try to address all questions tonight. Typically easements are evaluated on appraisals, but how it's determined is all over the map in terms of programs around the state. • Miller: If there's a great disparity between the cost of going through versus the cost of going around a natural area, we need to look at the fiscal implication to the development or construction process. • Fischer: I tried to look at various types of easements. Sewer lines are just one of them. We should look at roads and overhead power lines too. I think we should say now that we will not allow certain types of easements. It isn't just the issue of the disturbance of the natural area. There's the cost to the City of granting the easement, paperwork and unforeseen consequences. Boxelder has been an incredible nightmare. • Shoemaker: If you look at the map we own some pretty big chunks of ground. We have a lot of roads that are two lane that will be four lanes in the future. Does that mean no road widening? • Fischer: Are there currently easements? For some there are, but for many there aren't. • Waskom: Can we make it a policy that won't allow that, or won't allow it if there's a feasible alternative? • Rodriguez: In terms of debating condemnation and the public good, these areas are preserved by a vote of the people. Yet, the districts have public health and well-being in mind. What trumps what in the case of public good? In every case you have to prove that this won't have a long term negative consequence. The public wants these natural areas. We're all in agreement that forcing them to look seriously at alternatives, and do feasibility level engineering of alternatives is appropriate. Our experience so far is that they always start with only their proposed alternative. • Fischer: One of the issues is how much of a disturbance will there be. What does it do to our property? Who would have foreseen that a 4" main such as that at Boxelder would cause as many problem as it has? • Sears: That gave us a very real "worst case" scenario. It's hard to image it getting much worse than that. • Sears: With almost every street there is a utility corridor, that can get fairly wide. With gas, water, electric, telephone, etc., that easement can be fifty to one hundred feet wide. The question is, do we want to allow it along a natural area versus diagonally across? • Fischer: We have options, do we want them on our property or in the road right of way? If we're saying no road widening can occur it won't fly. We want to be thoughtful about it so that we aren't viewed as being unrealistic. • Miller: Taft Hill is eventually going to go to four lanes. There will be a sizeable embankment. The right of way will have to be wider. I think it's pretty reasonable to calculate what the future right of way will be. We ought to try to hold future utility easements inside the right of way. • Fischer: We can't foresee everything. We need to make a policy that will be strict, and do the best we can. Natural Resources Advisory Board • October 4, 2000 Page 7 • Shoemaker: One thing the folks who are watching us will want us to be mindful of is not making the easement policy drive other, broader City policies. If a decision is to be made about a new road, that decision needs to be faced and discussed. • Rodriguez: No one thinks we'll drive those types of decisions with this policy. But, having this policy in place will be one more thing to consider. • Fischer: I reject outright the assumption that Council could or would say, here's a new amendment to the Master Street Plan. The easement policy should drive the decision. We don't want people crossing natural areas with new roads. Natural areas are intended to create large tracts of unfragmented land. I'm not saying that natural area considerations aren't critical. I have fought and won that battle. But I am saying that's not based on an easement policy, it's based upon the structure plan. I'm saying it won't fly for us to subvert the Master Street Plan. • Sears: Policy is always one resolution away from being changed. We can do more by creating appreciation and stewardship. If the love of the natural areas is that strong, it's a much stronger approach than a policy we could make now. • Fischer: We need both. We need a policy to deal with the reality of today, but we have to use a lot of foresight in how we do this. We want a policy that will last in the future. • Waskom: What would be the impact of removing points one and six from Randy's document? The general policy would be easements are not granted unless there is no cost effective alternative, rather than list certain ones we won't allow at all. • Fischer: I believe there are certain things that should not go through. A new road wipes out the value of land we bought. Maybe, it won't destroy it 100%. I don't think you can put a cost on fragmenting of a natural area. • Rodriguez: I agree in spirit with the thoughts Randy has laid out. Might be able to compromise on a couple of issues, but I would try to stay consistent with the spirit of his ideas in terms of policy. It's well done and captures what I was thinking about. • Miller: The policy will have to be accepted or denied by Council. It's not worth going through the effort if it won't be approved. • Sears: Should we address all of this at this time? • Waksom: Maybe there should be a general statement. The policy for easements in natural areas is they are denied, unless there is no feasible altenative. • Donovan: That's too simple, it won't fly. • Shoemaker: The question is, what's a feasible alternative? I need help on what you mean by cost-effective and cost -ratio benefit greater than one. • Fischer: It would be the benefit of the development that's being served. What you would want to do is have the applicant show that his development would lose money if he had to go a different route. • Miller: The citizens did not tax themselves for development to have a higher profit margin. The citizens didn't approve it to make it impossible to develop in Fort Collins. • Fischer: The City of Fort Collins is in the business of enabling development, that's probably 90% of what they do. Enable development and serve those who live there. Natural Resources Advis Board October 4, 2000 — Page 8 • Fischer: I don't see how that will change. The natural areas program was not made to enable development, and it shouldn't be looked on as a cheap, easy way to make more money on their development. • Rodriguez: A policy like this makes it clear to the public there are tradeoffs. Even controlled growth has external costs. • Donovan: Should we try to itemize the types of easements if there is staff time to go through the calculations? • Sears: I think it would be more effective to tackle it all at once. • Knowlton: I agree it's better to be as comprehensive in the beginning as possible. • Waskom: We have some utility easements that are very serious and have to be dealt with. • Shoemaker: We'll get it done as quickly as we can. What I'm hearing is get it done, be strong but reasonable. We'll take a crack at it, and bring it back. It would be useful if Randy and others who are interested would act as an ad -hoc committee. Rodriguez, Waskom, Donovan and Fischer are interested in being a part of the committee. Committee Assignments Natural Areas: Don Rodriguez * Linda Knowlton Randy Fischer Kelly Ohlson Trails: Don Rodriguez Linda Knowlton Randy Fischer Kelly Ohlson * Education: Kelly Ohlson Phil Murphy Budget: Reagan Waskom Nate Donovan (Phil Murphy ?) Growth Mgmt: Reagan Waskom Linda Knowlton Kelly Ohlson Solid Waste: Randy Fischer Futures: Phil Murphy Kelly Ohlson * Committee Chairperson Standing Meetings Natural Areas: 2"d Thursday of each month at noon Solid Waste: Is` Monday of each month at noon. • Knowlton: What's the Education Committee? Nate Donovan Reagan Waskom Phil Murphy • Rodriguez: It has weighed in on interpretative signage, but we haven't been kept in the loop. It hasn't been too effective as a committee. • Shoemaker: The Futures Committee has identified jobs for the Education Committee. Natural Resources Advisory Board • October 4, 2000 Page 9 • Knowlton: A two or three line description of these committees would be useful to new members and staff. • Fischer: What will it take to get a stronger Education Committee? Someone will have to get interested and take the ball. It can become a priority if someone wants it to. Shoemaker: The way the department is organized we have education folks in each of the programs. They talk to each other and work with each other as part of a team, but we don't have an educational group. Review of Minutes: September 6, 2000 Page 6, 6`h bullet; Change to, "If Amendment 24 does not pass, the legislature will say that by not doing anything about growth they've been right all along. Page 3, 1s` paragraph, 3rd sentence, change to; "if it's not a constitutional amendment" Page 4, 7rh bullet; change "no" to "not" Reagan Waskom made a motion to approve the minutes as amended. The motion was seconded by Bill Miller and unanimously approved. September 20, 2000 Page 4, 4d' line down, Change to; "rate of growth used was 2.2%" Nate Donovan made a motion to approve the minutes as amended. The motion was seconded by Linda Knowlton and unanimously approved. Committee Reports Futures Committee: This committee met September 20, 2000 and today (October 4) before the regular NRAB meeting. Two changes are being proposed. The action log will be narrower so it reflects those things that require specific action. A new list will be called Future Agenda Setting and will reflect topics the Board would like to discuss at some point and time. Announcements • Miller: Monday night on Channel 9 the results of a poll on Amendment 24 showed 45% of the people polled in favor of the amendment, and that even if the undecided vote goes to the opposition there will still be 62% to 38% in favor of the amendment. Fischer added the developers campaign is just starting. They're dropping a thousand dollars a day on full page ads in the Coloradoan. Miller said an article in the Denver Post said one of the people who helped form the coalition for responsible growth in 1994 has been asked to reactivate that organization. They have received $2.4 million for ad campaigns on behalf of the opposition. • Shoemaker: Council action on the resolution failed. The City of Fort Collins position is neutral. • Fischer: Council adopted the Mason Street Corridor plan. • Fischer: Council is opposed to Amendment 21. • Rodriguez: Working with a group in Denver to look at the public perception of open lands in Larimer County. It's interesting to look at how people view these areas with Natural Resources Advis Board October 4, 2000 Page 10 respect to access, conservation easements, etc. The idea is to look at a list of public priorities that the County put together. Fischer: There will be an environmental brown bag on Friday, October 6 from 7:30 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. Scott Mason will be attending. Council Six Month Planning Calendar October 17: Appropriation Ordinance October 24: Regional I-25 corridor Plan November 21: Fall Land Use Code Revisions (Shoemaker will check to see if there's anything of substance.) Review Action Log Shoemaker and Fischer will meet to discuss future agenda items. Action Items — Check on the subject and nature of the East Prospect Zoning — Land Use Code revisions — Craft recommendation to Council on water policy (?) Review Future Agenda Items October 18: November 1: Canal Importation, Susan Hayes (or the December meeting) There will be a Work Session on October 18, 2000. Adjournment The meeting adjourned at 9:30 p.m.