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HomeMy WebLinkAboutNatural Resources Advisory Board - Minutes - 11/04/1998E MINUTES CITY OF FORT COLLINS NATURAL RESOURCES ADVISORY BOARD REGULAR MEETING 281 N. COLLEGE AVENUE NOVEMBER 4,1998 For Reference: Phil Murphy, NRAB Chair - 491-6303 Bill Bertschy, Council Liaison - 484-0181 Susie Gordon, Staff Liaison - 221-6265 Board Members Present Phil Friedman, Bill Miller, Randy Fischer, Phil Murphy, Don Rodriguez, Kelly Ohlson, Nathan Donovan, Reagan Waskom, Board Members Absent Rick Harness Staff Present Natural Resources Dent Terry Klahn, Susie Gordon, Karen Manci, Edith Felchle Forestry: Jim Clark, Tim Buchanan Introduce Guests Sally Craig, Planning and Zoning Board Agenda Review Natural Areas acquisition presentation at 8:30 is cancelled. Sally Craig would like to speak to the board, will take the 8:30 slot. Announcements • A corrected sheet of page 4 of the October 7, 1998 minutes is available from Terry. (A draft copy was distributed in error.) • Bill Miller said that at the next meeting of the Larimer County Environmental Advisory Board on Tues, Nov. 10, they will be going over how the EAB can be more effective at the County level. Members of the Larimer County EAB feel that they would like to be more involved but are not being asked. • Phil Friedman stated that Rick Knight will be giving a talk at the downtown library on November 19. • Phil Friedman said that the Tyvek envelopes used for mailing the board packets are recyclable. The envelopes can be put in a large envelope and mailed to Dupont, where they are turned into plastic. It was suggested that a Solid Waste Committee meeting be scheduled to discuss the recycling of these materials. Natural Resources Adviso.j Board November 4, 1998 Page 2 Phil Friedman attended a wind conference sponsored by the City and others. There is good research being done by government, and other industries, to lessen the avian impact of wind turbines on birds. Kelly Ohlson said that an issue passed in New Jersey to purchase a million acres of open space. The Jefferson County bond passed and in Greeley the open space issue failed. Review Minutes • Randy Fischer said that a member of the Water Board feels that the NRAB minutes are terrible and it's impossible to understand what's going on from them. It can't be determined how decisions are reached and the outline format does not communicate what the board has done. When reading Water Board minutes you can follow the complete discussion. • Kelly Ohlson feels that the minutes are pretty brief and the board needs to discuss the format again. • Staff stated that the abbreviated format was a decision made by the board. It was also stated that it's hard for staff to stay up to date with the minutes in a lengthy format when there are two meetings a month. • Phil Murphy said that if the board wants to see expanded minutes and staff feels there is insufficient time, then there may be a need to turn to City Council and ask for more staff. This is an advisory board to Council and if this is how we want minutes, and there is not enough staff to accommodate us then City Council needs to do something about it. • Kelly Ohlson feels that the minutes need "a little tweaking". • Staff said that if the board wants an increase, can nudge a bit, but can't go to full verbatim minutes. • Bill Miller said that the minutes used to be pretty close to verbatim and the board agreed that the abbreviated format was appropriate. • Staff suggested a meeting be arranged with Susie Gordon, Terry Klahn, Kelly Ohlson, and Randy Fischer to discuss the format of the minutes. • Phil Friedman would like to see attribution of what is said in the minutes. Minutes: October 7, 1998 Page 3, last paragraph: The minutes will be edited to say "In response to the board's concerns about lights, noise and wildlife, John Daggett said the road is no longer planned to extend from Drake to Horsetooth." Page 1, Announcements. 1" bullet: Change to "Phil Friedmanjoked that since his trash hauler did finally remove the tag from his extra trash can, maybe pay -as -you -throw is partially working". Page 2, Yd bullet: change to, "Randy Fischer attended the Cottonwood Glen open house and has concerns about the facilities and road that Parks is proposing to build." Natural Resources Aa6isory Board • November 4, 1998 Page 3 Paee 2, Solid Waste: Kelly Ohlson was referring to newspaper being collected at the City's drop off. Page 3, Number 6: change last sentence to read "Kelly Ohlson requested that it be made clear to Council that the board is not supporting staff s decision to make no changes". The October 7, 1998 minutes were unanimously approved as amended. Minutes: October 21, 1998 Page 4, 3' bullet: change to read, "Move the permanent facilities, including the parking lot, bathroom and concessions into the alignment of the extension of Overland Trail". Page 5, Trails. 2"d bullet: change to read, "An alternative that should also be on the table is that no trail be built, but there are a couple places that would have little or no impact. If those places do not pan out because of opposition than the null alternative is where we should go and no trail should be built". The October 21, 1998 minutes were unanimously approved as amended. Natural Areas Ordinances, Karen Manci • Karen Manci presented a brief background. The education subcommittee reviewed the draft proposal and provided good comments. Changes were made based on board recommendations. The ordinances went next to an open house (Oct. 19), then revised and are now being brought back to the full board. • Many of the proposed ordinances are in effect now as part of the general natural areas management guidelines, but were never added to City Code as ordinances. With rangers now doing enforcement it's critical to get them into Code. • Eighteen people attended the open house. • Staff proposes to permit Search & Rescue to use a limited list of sites. The ordinance that goes to Council would not specify locations. Council will vote on whether to include exemptions for SAR from the "dogs off leash" rule as part of the Code. • First three sites offered were Ross and Gustav Swanson Natural Areas and the Archery Range. SAR felt Gustav Swanson was too small and was concerned about safety at both Swanson and Archery Range. SAR is talking to Parks and would like to use community parks but P&R staff isn't too interested in providing an exemption for them. Greenbriar was recommended and we also offered for SAR to use Redwing Marsh. • SAR is very interested in Rolland Moore. Parks has added Golden Meadows. • The proposed list includes Arapaho Bend (when open), Archery Range, Redwing Marsh Natural Area (works well with park), Salyer Natural Area, Legacy Park and Legacy Natural Area (north of river), Gustav Swanson and Ross Natural Area. • This list has not gone back to SAR. Staff was waiting to get feedback from the board. • Have also heard from horse people. The principal complaint is that being restricted to within five feet of paved trail is not an adequate distance to get out of the way of Natural Resources Advise , Board November 4, 1998 Page 4 potential problem situations. Five feet is within the kicking distance of a horse. They have requested the five feet to be expanded to ten feet. Discussion • Kelly Ohlson: Let's start with the horse thing, do they want to be able to go off trail and cross the river? They will only be allowed off trail to get out of the way of someone else. Also, it's troublesome for some horses to cross over bridges. Will consider a designated crossing for horses, specifically at Martinez/Legacy bridge. • Kelly Ohlson: What about the hours posted, we're not policing from 11:00 p.m. to 5:OOa.m.? In the past the police have said it's useful to have in regulations that natural areas are closed from 11: 00 p.m. to 5: 00 a.m. Legitimate stargazers will be able to get a permit. Ifpolice or county sheriff are patrolling and see a vacant vehicle, they will wonder what's going on. Details of how to handle this still need to be worked out. • Phil Friedman: Need to make wording changes about harassing wildlife. The wording has been changed. • Phil Friedman: Horses being ten feet off trail shouldn't be a problem, horse people tend to be responsible. Would like to see the bikers become better educated, triangular signs that show who yields to whom would probably be effective and not too expensive. Put them at trailheads where mountain bikers and horses meet. • Don Rodriguez: The signs don't always work. Have serious problems at Lory State Park. They might work on our trails. • Randy Fischer: Does a city ordinance apply if a natural area is outside of the city limits? In City Code there is an article that if the City owns the property and it's open to the public, then the Code does apply. • Randy Fischer: Maybe it's a good idea to add activities that are not allowed under current City code (e.g., dogs off leash). It's not necessary to do that, those activities do not need to be repeated under this ordinance. • Kelly Ohlson: Wording is important, need to make sure that horse people understand that the ten feet extension is for right-of-way and/or safety issues, and should only be used when necessary. If the intent is to give ten extra feet so the riders can feel more "cowboyish", than that's different than for safety issues. • Phil Friedman: Will give leeway of ten feet to avoid issues, on paved trails is five feet enough for them to be adjacent to trails and not have a conflict? Yes, it should be O.K. Should there be regs and requirements that bikers avoid horses? Why does the horse have to be the one to make the evasive maneuvers? Should there be requirements for the bikers? • Bill Miller: Need to educate the bikers to slow down. • Kelly Ohlson: I will be voting no on the recommendation because of Parks. The great irony is, they're willing to put anything in natural areas but don't want rescue dogs in community parks. I'm also annoyed with the NRD for being too concerned about every item of possible conflict. Things are always controversial when some special Natural Resources A'E4isory Board • November 4, 1998 Page 5 interest or NIMBY group is involved, but staff is less concerned about whether proposals are amenable to this board or controversial to this board. This board is always willing to compromise, and frankly, I'm sick and tired of it. Just letting you know that this is a classic mistake; when you look around the biggest supporters will no longer be there. • Randy Fischer: I'm not sure of the purpose to have a specific item in the ordinance that details one particular interest group, my problem is that we have bent over backwards to accommodate SAR. Why are we bending over backwards to accommodate this group? The letter to staff is insulting. They have been training illegally for over a year, and flaunting it because they have been doing this for so long, and now they're mad because we're going to restrict them. I've had it with them, the initial offer to use three natural areas is adequate. • Don Rodriguez: I would echo that. Also, we're asked for input, the NRAB gives its input and then staff takes it and "caves". • Phil Friedman: SAR's letter is a little arrogant, don't sense that they're compromising or sensitive to staff needs. • Kelly Ohlson: Don't we want to say that Parks should "ante up"? It's not so packed in Rolland Moore that SAR can't use it. • Bill Miller: Almost ready to go on record, if we're going to keep splitting hairs on what's permitted in a natural area, maybe we should say "no human activity" at all. Maybe we should have dog training parks instead of dog pooping parks. • Reagan Waskom: Do we have to have this in the ordinance, why is SAR the only one identified in the ordinance? Allowed only on select natural areas by permit only. Need written permission and must follow certain guidelines. Trying to be extremely explicit so that everyone doesn't expect to be able to obtain a permit to train their dogs. Bill Miller moved that the NRAB endorse the revision and addition to City Ordinances as proposed. Phil Friedman seconded. Motion is approved -five `for" and one opposed. The board discussed the need to send a memo to the Council to specify the limited exemptions given to SAR. 1. There can be substitution sites. 2. Community parks should contribute some sites, since they are part of this community's resources too. 3. Will not endorse the use of any sensitive sites. 4. Will not endorse any sites in foothills even if not sensitive. S. No net increase in the number of natural area sites recommended by staff. Kelly Olson: I will be supporting the original staff recommendation. Reagan Waskom: Why don't we just stick to the first three sites? Kelly Olson: This is just another compromise. Natural Resources Advis"y Board November 4, 1998 Page 6 Horticulture Site Selection, Jim Clark, Tim Buchanan Jim Clark presented an overview of the project to date. There has been a lot of progress made in the last six months. The search has been narrowed down to two sites. Staff is here tonight to generate discussion and initiate comments. Have been gathering information and trying to address concerns and issues. Have been meeting to discuss the CSURF site with CSU. Don Rodriguez has been very involved. There was an open house on the 22nd, received a lot of comments. Neighborhood meetings are coming up, P&Z work session is next Friday (Nov. 13). There will be a Council site visit this Friday and work session December 8. Lee Martinez Site Advantages: downtown/civic center/river synergy, natural beauty of site as backdrop, variable topography, lowest cost Disadvantages: environmental concerns, just barely large enough, railroad CSURF Advantages: partnership potential with CSU, larger land size, fewer site constraints in general, better soil Disadvantages: lack of downtown synergy, less immediate site beauty, high risk of flood damage, cost • The focus now for both sites is to mitigate disadvantages, and trying to whittle down that $500,000 price, so CSURF is a more viable site. • Budget is for approximately five landscaped acres. Because of higher cost, there would only be enough money to landscape and garden a couple acres if the CSURF site it chosen. • Still intend to do private fundraising, but want to build something with city portion of money that makes an impact. • Negotiating with CSU to get the price down and find common ground. Also working on partnerships. • Kelly Ohlson: If this becomes a money issue, and if council will choose a site other than Lee Martinez I personally will do whatever can be done to make up for the money difference. It's more accurate to talk about what we think the land will cost us, than to talk about what we think the land is worth. When talking to an "unwilling seller" you have to be willing to pay their price. The City is unlikely to use condemnation procedures to obtain this land. Hort Center supporters don't have to worry about ending up with a site they don't want that will also cost more money. There is too much money Natural Resources Atsory Board November 4, 1998 Page 7 available in a number of City funds and too many ways to reallocate money to this project. The Natural Areas can even be used to pony up money. • Bill Miller: It may not be as well forested as Lee Martinez but CSURF has a nice tree area. Need to approach CSU with the idea that the Hort Center would gain access to both sides of Spring Creek, so that management of riparian areas would be from both sides. • Phil Friedman: CSURF may not have as much riparian interest as Lee Martinez, but there is quite a bit of vegetation along Spring Creek. It's not fair to say there's nothing at CSURF. There is quite a bit of vegetative experience and feel, kind of a wild feel for someplace right in the middle of Fort Collins, a lot of nice amenities. • There is a strong current focus on partnerships. A big consideration for CSU is the possible use of the Old Fort Collins High School Park as part of an agreement. • Phil Friedman: It's important that these partnerships be pursued. Both sides should say what they need and not play games. On the issue of partnerships in general, the City has had a lot of opportunities. Everyone is always good at talking about how wonderful the partnerships are, but not good at accomplishing them. • Kelly Ohlson: Need to make it clear in the recommendations that the board supports the Horticulture Center and that we continue to be opposed to Lee Martinez. The City should provide an extra million dollar "kicker". • Bill Miller: Or at least make up the shortfall. • Kelly Ohlson: I'm saying make up the shortfall, plus an extra million. A million dollars can buy the character that some folks feel is missing from the CSURF site a lot quicker. Motion: The NRAB finds that of the two current potential horticulture center sites, the CSU Research Foundation site is our only acceptable choice. Further, NRAB continues to oppose the Lee Martinez site. In its efforts to construct this site, the City should pursue any and all partnership potentials with Colorado State University. In addition, the City should identify all financial resources at its disposal to ensure that site costs are equalized and we recommend that Council should strongly consider the application of all revenue sources to the Horticulture Center. Finally, the NRAB is fully committed to assisting in securing additional funding to allow complete build -out. The motion passed unanimously. Review Future Agenda Items: Add: November 18, 1998, Howes Street Outfall December 16, 1998, Holiday Party The reason Bob Blanchard wants to speak about the CSU Learning Center is that he is the lead planner in the development review process, due to staff resignation. Committee Reports Nothing to report. Natural Resources Advis,,-y Board November 4, 1998 Page 8 Review Action Log See update in packet. Gateway Park Representative Regular — Bill Miller Alternate — Phil Friedman Floodplain Representative: Regular — Randy Fischer Alternate — Rick Harness Annexation and Rezoning of East Prospect Sally Craig spoke to the Board concerning the potential annexation and rezoning of property on East Prospect. Scheduled to go to P&Z on November 19 and to Council in December. Adjournment The meeting adjourned at 9:45 p.m.