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MINUTES
CITY OF FORT COLLINS
NATURAL RESOURCES ADVISORY BOARD
SPECIAL MEETING
405 CANYON AVENUE
January 27, 1999
For Reference: Phil Murphy, NRAB Chair -
491-6303
Bill Bertschy, Council Liaison -
484-0181
Susie Gordon, Staff Liaison -
221-6265
Board Members Present
Randy Fischer, Don Rodriguez, Kelly Ohlson,
Reagan Waskom, Phil Murphy, Bill Miller, Nate Donovan
Board Members Absent
Phil Friedman, Rick Harness
Staff Present
Natural Resources Dent: Terry Klahn, Susie Gordon, Tom Shoemaker
City Manager's Office: Ann Turnquist
Guests
Sally Craig, Planning and Zoning Board
K-Lynn Cameron, Larimer County Parks & Open Lands
Eve Yanda Basset, Larimer County Parks & Open Lands
Agenda Review
Add:
FIDOS, Randy Fischer
Floodplain Task Force Update, Randy Fischer
Gateway Park Update, Bill Miller
Brief Announcements
• Ohlson: There are openings on the County Planning Commission. We need to
encourage people to apply.
• Ohlson: The VMT (Vehicle Miles Traveled) in Fort Collins increased 24.8 percent in
a three year period (1996,1997,1998).
• Ohlson: The stormwater system that was installed at Coors Field in Denver is a
failure and not working properly.
• Miller: Gateway Park — The first committee meeting was Monday (Jan. 25) night.
Approximately twenty people attended. The purpose was to define a process to come
up with a site design and management plan by fall of 2000. Construction on the
highway access road starts this spring. There has been a slight modification, access
will be moved uphill about 200 feet. This will result in less hillside being carved
away, and what is carved away will be used as fill. There will be less construction
Natural Resources Advisory Board
January 27, 1999
Page 2
debris, and what there is can be disposed of onsite instead of being trucked out.
There will probably be six to nine meetings, one per month, with an open house for
public input toward the end of the process. Kelly Ohison requested a list of the
committee participants. Don Rodriguez is on the team representing CSU.
Randy Fischer: Kevin Cook had an article in the Coloradoan regarding Ross Open
Space being considered as a site for the Horticulture Center. Randy stated that it was
inappropriate for many reasons. Don Rodriguez said the site selection committee
discussed the value of Ross and decided to play,out the CSURF idea and see where
that leads before looking at other sites. He added that people on the site selection
committee didn't take the article too seriously.
County Open Lands Program, K-Lynn Cameron
The County Open Lands Program has just finished its third year. It is funded by the
County Open Space Tax, which expires in 2003. The first year of the program was a
formative year. The second year's focus was on prioritization and negotiations, and one
acquisition was completed. The Open Lands Board is a very diverse citizen advisory
board. There are representatives from all over the County, with representatives from
each city and from the County Planning Commission. The County shares the open space
tax with cities in the County. Over the life of the tax the County will get $24,000,000,
$18,000,000 will be spent on acquisitions. The remaining $6,000,000 is for expenses and
long term management of the land. Fifty-five percent of the allocated money has been
committed. Doing a good job with partnerships, last year brought in $1.3 million from
LOCO; also have partnerships with Loveland, Fort Collins, and Estes Park. High
priorities right now are the Fossil Creek Reservoir area and the Carter Lake/Pineridge
area. Will close on an easement at the mouth of Big Thompson Canyon toward the end of
February. There are also plans to work on a Loveland/Berthoud corridor.
Considering going to the voters in November 1999 and asking them to extend the current
sales tax into the future. Will also be requesting bonding, so can get the money up -front
and buy land now.
Discussion
• Ohison: It's great that you have spent 55% of the money. You should be proud, land
won't be getting any cheaper. What's the current staff and FTE's? Permanent is 4.3,
with two additional one-year contract positions. Equals 6.3 FTE's with two positions
being contractural.
• Ohlson: When doing your management plans, are you planning to be sensitive about
combining the visitor's experience with habitat and wildlife needs? We have all those
bases covered. How will you deal with dogs? On an individual basis. There is a
county -wide leash law.
• Rodri uez: Was there an announcement for two open space rangers? They will be
Park Rangers, permanent part-time. We have five full-time rangers. Do you envision
a core of open space rangers? Probably not, all the rangers would like to have the
opportunity to work in the open spaces.
Natural Resources f0dvisory Board •
January 27, 1999
Page 3
• Ohlson: Would like to give credit where credit is due. Had high expectations from
this program, and they have been surpassed.
County Transportation and Parks Fees, Ann Turnquist & K-Lynn Cameron
Ann Turnquist stated that she is here to talk about the proposed fees the County is asking
the City to develop. After February 15 1999, the County will impose regional road fees
and regional park fees. The County is asking the City to develop a parallel structure.
The revenues from fees would go to projects outside the city. Turnquist passed out two
handouts that were reviewed with the Board.
Discussion
• Donovan: I support growth paying its own way, are you going to present Council
with an itemized list of the impact fees? This is a work in progress, when this item
goes to Council there will be some version of this handout.
• Ohlson: How can you prove impact? I think the fees should be reflectiveibut I was
told the courts frown on that. The Cityfees were based on square footage because it
could be tied to an average number of occupants. The County's fees are not based on
square footage, they're based on housing types.
• Ohlson: Don't know why City -collected school district fees are shown here. We are
still trying to put this together, appreciate your input. When this goes to Council it
needs to be presented fairly and clearly.
• Fischer: Are you asking Loveland and Berthoud for similar fees? Yes, we came to
Fort Collins first, but all the cities will be asked to pass a parallel fee.
• Fischer: There's a run on building permits when there's a ninety -day grace period. I
can understand not charging the fee if a permit is in -process.
• Donovan: In the whole scheme of things is the grace period a big deal? No, it's
probably not a big deal. The logic is if a homebuyer has already signed a contract
the contractor can't go back and get another $700 to pay the fees.
• Ohlson: Is staff in favor of this proposal? Yes.
• Fischer: On the inventory of regional parks there are a bunch of Fort Collins natural
areas; we're trying to make sure that natural areas are not confused with parks. When
presenting to Council it needs to be made clear there are natural areas and parks.
Randy Fischer made the following motion: Move that the NRAB go on record in support
of the City collecting fees for capital expansion dedicated to transportation and regional
parks. The motion passed, six in favor, 0 opposed, 1 abstention.
Update on Solid Waste Districting/Recycling, Susie Gordon
Susie Gordon stated that in a meeting with Council last week, the conclusion was reached
that it's not feasible to get districting approved at this time. A list of other methods to
accomplish the goals was compiled. Staff suggested that there are still gains to be made
toward solid waste reduction and recycling. Council was appreciative of the opportunity
to be pro -active, and said to come back if money was needed. Hoping that at the
conclusion of the next Solid Waste Reduction Committee meeting we can put together an
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January 27, 1999
Page 4
outline of who needs to be involved, and a plan to present to Council. We will be looking
to this board to act in a leadership role.
Discussion
• Ohlson: This was a suicide mission and we weren't going to get out of this with
anything. This is a two-year extension of not going to districting.
• Ohlson: The memo mentions only solid waste reduction. Scott Mason had several
other suggestions, which included; working with haulers regarding safety, having all
trash haulers pick up in a specific neighborhood on the same day, instigate a more
legitimate pay -as -you -throw system, and trash truck weight enforcement. We need to
focus on more than just solid waste reduction.
• Waskom: What are the major objections to districting, and how do you resolve them
in eighteen months?
• Ohlson: We're never going to get the trash haulers support on this. It's critical that
we can determine how much progress has been made.
• Ohlson: We need better data and the haulers go out of their way not to give it. This is
the final gasp, districting makes sense, it's ludicrous the way we do it.
• Fischer: I saw this memo as a cop-out. So we get killed on districting. In all of the
recycling bills that have come up on the ballot over the last ten to fifteen years, none
have done anything to force supermarkets to recycle. But, the threat spurred some of
the more responsible parties to implement their own recycling program. This might
be a benefit of proceeding with districting.
• Mumhv: Keep in mind that as a board we have the ability to make recommendations
on some of those issues. This memo doesn't preclude us from going beyond what is
on here, we don't have to limit ourselves to this. We are required to send a memo
that says, "here's what we heard you say", it's not restrictive.
• Ohlson: It's something that future Council members will see, and things are missing
from staffs 1/20/99 memo.
• Murphy: We can write a follow-up memo, and include the items we want to see.
• Donovan: Rather than writing a memo, maybe we can do a clarification.
• Miller: If anything, identify five or six new ideas, and also reinforce the shortcomings
of not having districting.
• Ohlson: Staff could have supported the "not at this time" without seeming to work it
over. It shouldn't have been presented in such a negative light. No one said
districting was a bad idea, we could have put up a fight and we still would have lost.
• Murohy: The issue needs to go to subcommittee to deal with this.
Other Business
FIDOS, Randy Fischer
Randy stated that he believes the meeting went very well. The group behaved very
differently, with staff present, than at the first meeting. Tom Shoemaker, Edith Felchle,
and Kristin Powell were there. Everyone did an excellent job representing our point of
view. Shoemaker explained that Natural Resources staff is a very different entity than
Natural Resources11visory Board •
January 27, 1999
Page 5
the NRAB, and there's nothing he can do about the NRAB's opinion. He didn't give
them any reason to think there would be dogs -off leash allowed in natural areas. He did
suggest that they consider purchasing their own land. There were fewer people at this
meeting than the first one, maybe 25 to 30. Their agenda is still to be able to have dogs
off -leash in natural areas, parks and trails. They would do away with the leash law
altogether if possible.
Discussion
• Fischer: The city of Boulder has opened most of their natural areas to dogs off leash.
• Ohlson: Has staff developed a half page handout yet to explain the legitimate reasons
for not allowing dogs off -leash?
• Fischer: Kristin spoke very eloquently about Rick Knight's study. It can be
statistically proven that a dog on -leash is less stressful to wildlife than a dog off -
leash. FIDOS has studies of their own that say the exact opposite. Tom did an
excellent job, very low key and kept it real positive.
• Rodriguez: The perspective is, if the dog is not bothering humans, it's not bothering
anything.
• Fischer: When Kristin mentioned Rick Knight, Ted Shepard suggested the possibility
of bringing him in to speak.
• Rodri ez: Do they have a full-fledged chapter?
• Fischer: Yes, I think so. The next meeting is February 22, and I think they will start
meeting at the Harmony Library on a regular basis.
• Rodriguez: Has there ever been an inventory of where dogs off leash are welcome?
• Fischer: There was a discussion about compliance, no one had any good statistics to
determine the rate of compliance. Edith (Felchle) mentioned that it may be 25-30%
compliance, but this was a guess. I went to Cathy Fromme Prairie last weekend, and
the compliance was 100%.
• Ohlson: If the rate of compliance doesn't get better, then I would be the first to say
let's get rid of the rangers. It would be nice to know what difference two rangers
have made over a period of time.
• Waskom: There could be a lag -time.
• Rodriguez: What's the average age of the group?
• Fischer: Mostly under fifty, maybe one or two older. Some were identified as
students. Most were in their twenties or early thirties.
Air Quality Memo
See updated memo in packet.
Fossil Creek/Huntington Hills Land Acquistion
Waskom: Feelings from the field trip were very mixed.
Mumhv: A lot of time was spent talking about relative values. The consensus was
probably to purchase. The real hassle was with the Mail Creek property. When you
walk it, you realize there's a portion they can't do anything with. It boils down to
how much of the property is developable.
Natural Resources Advisory Board
January 27, 1999
Page 6
• Miller: The creeks are so incised, it's basically a channel, in some places there's a
fifteen -foot wall. If we were to acquire it we would be saddled with an above -
average expense of stabilization. There's not much wildlife value, no prairie dogs,
and the raptors are for the most part gone.
• Rodriguez: There was a bald eagle in someone's back yard.
• Miller: It was in a traditional perching tree.
• Ohlson: Maybe Parks should buy it with Conservation Trust funds money.
• Rodriguez: It bothers me that if we buy it, they will want to put the bike path in. It's
a more legitimate expense for Parks to purchase it.
• Murnhv: Is our consensus to say no?
• Ohlson: Our "no" doesn't mean that it won't happen, it could still happen.
Horticulture Center Site Selection Update, Don Rodriguez
The CSURF site has been reevaluated. The hope was that there would be a lower dollar
amount because of flood plain issues. The Center Ave. alignment has reduced the size of
one of the parcels. Parcel E was mapped at 15 acres, but realignment has cut that to 9.7
acres. No one seemed too concerned because they're thinking that they can buy property
on both sides of the irrigation ditch along the bike path. On February 15 appraisals will
be submitted for both the horticulture site and High School Park. High School Park is a
trump card — CSU wants that property.
The City has reversed its stance concerning whether it qualifies as a neighborhood park.
An additional $180,000 will be supplied to the hort center if they will provide
neighborhood park amenities. Every major hort center I've seen has a park of some kind
that adjoins it. It's totally consistent with what a horticulture center is about.
Board Packet Envelopes:
• Kelly Ohlson asked if there is an easier way to recycle these envelopes than what Phil
Friedman suggested? Staff will find a different envelope to mail the packets.
De-Icer:
• Kelly Ohlson clarified that he did not say that CDOT had discontinued the use of this
product. Just wanted to ensure the City of Fort Collins was aware of what was going
on. Staff will continue to stay vigilant about this product.
Fossil Creek/Huntington Hills Land Acquisition, Tom Shoemaker
Tom Shoemaker: Asked staff to visit the site, and they came back with the conclusion
that we should proceed with the acquisition. It's a headache in that there may be
maintenance difficulties. The reason to recommend the acquisition is to establish a
more significant buffer setback along the creeks. It would be a meaningful corridor.
Rodriguez: What is a "meaningful corridor"? The buffer distances are pretty
significant, a minimum of 175 feet. When add that to the creek you're approaching
300 foot width in most instances. With time and the right plantings, there would be
habitat for songbirds and hunting areas for some raptor species.
Natural Resourcestivisory Board •
January 27, 1999
Page 7
• Ohlson: What about the trail? There won't be trail on both sides, the trail will be by
the road.
• Rodriguez: What's your vision in terms of rehabilitating that site? Put in some native
grass, trying to work with the proposed development so it can happen concurrently.
• Ohlson: My concern is getting the most bang for the buck.
• Rodriguez: It doesn't seem to be a critical habitat.
• Waskom: It's more of an open space than a habitat.
• Shoemaker: The Building Community Choices money does have the latitude for
corridors and gateways.
• Ohlson: I would like to see staff give it another tough look, listen to our concerns and
then do what you think is right.
• Fischer: I was in favor of this to start with. Then I took my wife out there and she
said, "Why would you want to buy this?"
• Waskom: It looked bleak when we were out there, but in the spring it will look
different.
• Fischer: 1 see the value of the wider corridor, but on the other hand, why wouldn't
you be in favor of taking $300,000 and buying the prairie dog town on the corner of
Shields and Trilby?
Shoemaker will meet with Craig Foreman about trail alignment in the drainage area and
report back at the next meeting. The Board will make a recommendation at that time.
Action Log
Move to next meeting.
Motion (Nate Donovan): Move that the NRAB go into executive session to discuss board
involvement in the development review process.
The motion was approved unanimously.
Adjournment
The meeting adjourned at 10:30 p.m.