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HomeMy WebLinkAboutNatural Resources Advisory Board - Minutes - 11/05/200311 MINUTES CITY OF FORT COLLINS NATURAL RESOURCES ADVISORY BOARD REGULAR MEETING 281 N COLLEGE AVENUE November 5, 2003 For Reference Randy Fischer, NRAB Chair - 226-5383 Eric Hack, Council Liaison - 225-2343 John Stokes, Staff Liaison - 221-6263 Board Members Present Nate Donovan, Kelly Ohlson, Linda Knowlton, Randy Fischer, Clint Skutchan, Ryan Staychock Board Members Absent Phil Murphy, Arvind Panjabi, Sam Otero Staff Present Natural Resources Dent John Stokes, Terry Klahn, Mark Sears, Susie Gordon, James Birchler Transportation Planning Mark Jackson Advance Planning Ken Waido Guests RA Plummer Mark Jackson Several CSU students Rod Wmsmg, Windsor Town Manager K-Lynn Cameron, Lairmer County Parks & Open Lands Agenda Review Windsor/Johnstown Revenue Sharing item will be moved to first on the agenda Windsor/Johnstown Revenue Sharing, John Stokes Stokes said the IGS between Lanmer County, Fort Collins, and other municipalities that participate, have proposed to share revenues with Johnstown and Windsor Originally when the open space tax was passed only cities wholly in the County could participate Windsor and Johnstown have grown into the County and are feeding taxes into the revenue stream Staff requests that the NRAB endorse this We have to make an amendment This will go to P&Z on November 20, and is on the Council agenda for December 2 Natural Resources Adory Board November 5, 2003 Page 2 of 9 • Ohlson When this was originally discussed we had ideas and suggestions Have there been any changes9 • Stokes It hasn't been modified at all Other entities have already signed and executed it • Ohlson We're talking about sales tax generated from Lanmer County9 • Cameron Only the lands that are inside Lanmer County • Fischer Johnstown has annexed maybe 75 square miles of Lanmer County Talk about sprawl, it s huge They ve expanded their GMA boundary to basically as much as they possibly physically can It doesn't sound like a great deal of money now but Johnstown's plan is to fill up the area with the worse type of sprawl development we could imagine We could, in the future, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars • Ohlson Has anyone run the numbers out for 10-15 years9 It seems that the appropriate work hasn t been done to give a number • Cameron Along the I-25 corridor the commercial development will bring in increased sales tax revenue • Ohlson This is the most equitable way to deal with it We're not violating the legality because we re doing it through the cities A lot of these communities spend dollars in Fort Collins I am supportive of this approach My concern is the process Things need to come to the board in a timely manner I'm not happy about the timing • Fischer When this was presented in a work session, one of the things I understood was driving this was that the commissioners were threatening to meddle with the open space initiative I feel like this is blackmail I don t see the equity issue Windsor has been the recipient of open space acquisitions in their gma boundary, and maybe in the incorporated area We've spent over a million to date, with our open lands plan calling for significant additional land conservation efforts along the Poudre River corridor The 1-25 Corridor task force is looking for open lands along the I-25 corridor Johnstown didn't even participate in the meetings, yet we 11 fork over hard earned money from the County Open Lands program I don't know that they've shown any interest in doing any land conservation I don't see the need for this We don't know what this will cost us in the future, we've got 15 years till the tax expires Now it's only a few thousand dollars, but it could be some serious cash in the future • Staychock If the money that goes to Windsor and Johnstown is not spent what happens at the end of the year9 • Cameron Lanmer County does an annual report every year We ask for an accounting If they don t spend it that year, its not an issue The Town of Timnath has not spent their money from the beginning The interest goes into the fund for open space • Wmsing It's not only the County We have to set up a separate fund, those separate funds are audited • Wmsing I appreciate your comments about Johnstown I in not here to argue to their points or policies They are a small community, and they re working their way through this stuff Windsor is a lot different community over the 8 years I've been here The whole thing is about working regionally to deal with open space and Natural Resources Advisory Board • November 5, 2003 Page 3 of 9 community separators It comes with maturity as a small community They'll get there, new people move in, things change Ohlson I view this as a good example of regional cooperation They generate funds, and they also shop here We help build in the concept of open space I see no bad that can come from this if its handled properly Linda Knowlton made the following motion Move that the Natural Resources Advisory Board recommend to Council the amendment of the NAPP and the approval of a resolution endorsing this IGA The motion was seconded by Kelly Ohlson • Donovan I agree with Kelly regarding the regional cooperation and fairness But, we looked at this three years ago and tried to find the answer The language is clear that it only applies to the municipalities entirely in Lanmer County I don't agree with using this vehicle to get around the ballot language I don t support recommending it to Council • Fischer What is the City of Windsor s policy regarding open space9 • Winsing We are in the process of updating our Parks, Trails and Open Lands policy We ve identified a trails system We ve climbed that curve greatly from a policy standpoint, and continue to value open space, trails, and those kinds of things • Fischer Have you actually conserved any lands in Wmdsor9 • Wmsmg Yes We ve kept back some development and accepted some land and conservation easements from developers I think we ve done some good things • Cameron Talk about things changing Brooke Fox is on their Parks & Recreation board She was the director of the Douglas County Open Space Program • Ohlson Have both the County and City attorney's office signed off on this9 • Fischer Technically I don't think this is illegal But, practically it violates the spirit and intent of the ballot language • Donvoan On the legal aspects, reasonable minds can differ Whenever a person decides its legal to do something you look at what's the risk of doing it if its not legal There s not a risk to the entities Where does it go from here? Where are the limits to doing IGA s • Staychock My main concern is if the money will be spent on open space If it doesn't meet the intent of the ordinance, I don t know why • Fischer The ordinance that was adopted by the citizens initiative states that in order for communities to participate they must be wholly within Lanmer County It also specifies them by name to get a share of the money These communities were not in Lanmer County when the initiative passed • Cameron Windsor and Johnstown were not in the County when the ballot was passed in 1995 Times change you put together the best ballot language you can at the time Then the world changes Natural Resources Afisory Board • November 5, 2003 Page 4 of 9 • Fischer I agree with Nate You can have any citizen initiative in the world, and then have it undermined by an IGA It's a moral issue The voters voted on an ordinance Technically, there s probably nothing wrong, but practically, the communities are getting together to undo a part of the ordinance • Cameron The regional cooperation is a huge thing Moving forward with this will make it easier to protect more open space in the long run • Winsing From a small town environment this small gesture toward Johnstown could bear a lot of fruit in the future • Knowlton I have no doubt if we took the legalistic approach to change the ordinance it would pass by a landslide It s a small gesture • Fischer I believe in regional cooperation, and I think we are cooperating I in not sure there's a rational nexus for cooperation with Johnstown The motion passed with 3 votes in favor (Knowlton, Ohlson & Staychock), and 2 votes opposed (Donovan & Fischer) Transportation Master Plan, Mark Jackson Jackson said they were on track to bring this plan to adoption in December, but Council wants more time We'd like to have all advisory boards comments in hand by the time of the study session • Knowlton I'd prefer that we focus on proposed changes • Fischer I would like to have a discussion, and give everyone a chance to give comments • Jackson We've had this plan in specific internal review and have received pretty positive comments • Ohlson The first bullet on the MSP, the way you re wording it is not what Council has asked it to be What I ve heard is do not show any streets or roads on the City MSP Only show roads in the GMA, and outside the GMA on the County Plan I believe the majority of Council doesn't want it to show outside the IGA • Jackson I understand the concerns that somehow we are financially responsible if we show them, it's a valid concern But, we feel it s important to show how the system regionally connects We're preparing such a map to take back to the Transportation Board and Council • Fischer Is that a fiscally constrained map9 • Jackson Its fiscally unconstrained, it s a vision plan • Fischer How much of this map is really doable • Jackson A fraction of this • Fischer I'm not sure what the point of looking at this is I don't know how much of this is doable, or what we can afford I would need to compare this to the capital projects list We re using resources expanding roads on the chance the someday in the future we'll have the money to complete these Natural Resources Advisory Board • November 5, 2003 Page 5 of 9 • Jackson There are two different purposes at hand The fiscally constrained map is an implementation tool, this is a vision plan This document is used for different purposes, to help us be proactive • Knowlton Why do you insist upon six lane artenals9 Who wants them to be six lanes, and what is the purpose9 • Jackson I don't think anyone wants them to be six lanes But you can't turn your eye away from the from the east/west connections as a gateway to the City When you do a forecast analysis you can't treat Fort Collins as an island The model is reflecting those intensities • Ohlson I d like to address that If you go to four lanes, then six lanes, the six lanes will get full too So, if you have four or six lanes you have the same result Why not cut your losses now and save millions of dollars9 • Jackson We've been hearing that This is an entirely appropriate thing to include in your comments to Council I hear what you're saying Ourlob is to analyze and let people know what intensities are forecast and what will be necessary • Knowlton I think that ignores two of the things we say in City Plan 1) We re not going to expand the GMA east of I-25, and 2) we want these communities to be communities in their own rights so they don't send people to Fort Collins for everything, and become more than bedroom communities • Jackson It's entirely appropriate to add those types of comments to your recommendation to Council • Ohlson Why can t staff change their mmds9 • Jackson Staff can, and staff might We're having the debate internally as to if we just pull it There's value in raising the debate • Staychock In your analysis did you consider that voters may be approving a regional transportation plan9 • Fischer If this is a vision it's missing the boat Rather than six lane artenals, what about limited access four lane artenals9 I'm an engineer, but I ve never understood transportation engineering The solutions seem to clear Why haven't people thought of things that make traffic flow easier9 You can put in six lanes, but if you put a stop light in the wrong place you have congestion Upgrading the roads will negate the community separator visions Commercial development happens along those roads • Jackson Those are appropriate comments to forward to Council It's important for Council to hear the perspective of the NRAB • Donovan I don't understand the hubbub about showing roads outside the GMA The City can decide to help with funds • Jackson Right now they have bigger fish to fry • Knowlton I would be in support of showing any roads outside the GMA in terms of the County s plan for those roads But not what we think will be the capacity • Fischer I have a problem with showing major expansions of roadways that go through our community separators • Jackson I don t want anyone to think we are imposing our vision Those visions reflect Loveland, the County, and the I-25 Regional Plan We didn t make anything new up 0 Natural Resources Advisory Board November 5, 2003 Page 6 of 9 • Knowlton Then there needs to be some kind of statement that roads outside the GMA are in a regional context • Fischer In Chapter 6, under the MSP, I would like to see a policy or principal that says we will have street standards on roadways that go through natural areas Prospect is inappropriate the way it's being designed today There's no context to the natural area • Ohlson I don t think we're trying to restrain growth These roads are funded through the natural areas tax There are aesthetic impacts and impacts on wildlife You can have the road, but you don t need a bike lane or sidewalks on both sides Each time you go through a sensitive area we should look and make sure it's designed appropriately for that area One size does not fit all • Jackson That's a good description, we need to have the mind set to come up with the best workable plan • Fischer I ve gotten a sense of comments that people want to convey Let me know if you have any more specifics and 111 draft a recommendation • Ohslon Thanks for coming I appreciate your willingness to come back and take questions Let s make sure we get this right City Plan Update, Ken Waldo Waldo said he would like the NRAB to compile some comments and send on to Council We were planning to go to Council on December 2 with the TMP, but last Tuesday Council said they wanted more Council level discussion on it • Ohlson There's confusion in the open lands thing It appears like the Parks program is under the open lands Parks is a bigger section of the budget than open lands Wouldn't it be Open Lands and Parks & Rec9 • Waldo We ve had internal discussions When City Plan was first put together everything was grouped together There s been a little division, perhaps not as much as there should be When we get comments back from P&R, and comments from you we may have a new principal and maybe some separation • Fischer At the CAC meeting it was agreed that Bruce and/or some combination of consultants and staff would get together There are a lot of little things that don't seem quite right Some of the staff comments were inserted incorrectly It's gotten discombobulated • Ohlson The vision statement doesn t appear to be value neutral, it appears to be pro growth The CAC has some suggested wording that isn t anti -growth or pro -growth The vision should be neutral • Knowlton I would like to see the board support the CAC recommendation for this wording • Ohlson I would like to understand the population figures What is the recommendation about how to show projected numbers • Waldo On page 60 is the projection table We've relied on both the state demographer and the consultants • Fischer There were several people arguing for more realistic numbers Natural Resources Advisory Board • November 5, 2003 Page 7 of 9 • Ohlson Why don't we project growth that s realistic9 • Knowlton I predict that before that happens there will be another discussion These are projections, they're not plans • Skutchan I agree with Kelly It would be helpful to project out a high or low It seems like a useful tool • Ohlson What would be wrong to show the population growth in the last five years, not even saying we'll grow at the same rate in the next five years? • Knowlton The CAC suggested a new policy on Boxelder It's a pretty strong recommendation • Fischer One issue this board might be interested in addressing is the sustainability statements There is a goal that we 11 have a sustainable community There's very little in the document that points or leads to a path of sustainability In fact the opposite is true There's wording about subsidizing new development and trying to do things to attract new business to Fort Collins There are other things that could not be construed as sustainable • Ohlson I agree I wasn't going to bring up the economic development stuff We can strengthen the sustainability without going after the economic development part • Waido We re working on that The CAC wanted another principal, there's nothing drafted yet • Knowlton What the CAC said was this whole chapter relates to development and did not address sustainability • Fischer Just because environmental sustainability wasn t discussed at the CAC doesn't mean we cant do something • Staychock Thanks for incorporating our comments in the Poudre River section • Ohlson I believe in supporting new business, but not attracting it • Skutchan What are your suggestions for environmental sustamability9 • Fischer I don't have anything specific to offer It s one of the things I thought was lacking • Stokes We're going to develop a sustainability development policy for the City We'll be moving forward with it later this fall • Ohlson We could have a bullet that says to strengthen the environmental sustainability • Ohlson We should point out that we made an effort to try to stick to things related to the NRD, and the kinds of things we're charged with evaluating Pay as You Throw, Susie Gordon, James Birchler • Ohlson I was promised that we would dot all of the i's" and cross all of the "t s", and make sure that what's done is checked on, monitored and enforced We even discussed language about monitoring it Has that been done9 • Gordon The suggestion of the enforcement policy isn t necessarily the same as in the ordinance Enforcement isn t necessarily a part of the ordinance language • Daggett We already have the authority we need It s a matter of resources We have processes that we might be able to use better Natural Resources A visory Board • November 5, 2003 Page 8 of 9 • Ohlson We should make sure we're checking on it So, you fully intend to do that on a regular basis9 • Gordon We've already contacted finance They will audit the haulers books Our request is they will dedicate some extra time next year • Ohlson I appreciate that you checked on that • Stokes There are some new sections in the red line version that constitute beef -ups of our enforcement ability • Ohlson Keep in mind that Council direction was to close the loopholes • Fischer I in not sure how the two recommended changes to the ordinance will have any impact on a HOA's ability to tell everyone they will have the same size container This leaves me kind of cold All of the onus is on the hauler • Ohlson We're looking for a complete level of assurance that people will get notified that they can get lesser service We've got to make sure people have choices • Skutchan If you put the onus on the hauler they're assuming responsibility If they re overridden, what is their position • Daggett They hauler provides service the way anyone does If they're complying with the law, and you want service from us, here s the way its going to be • Gordon There's not a hauler who wouldn t comply with the law • Knowlton Have you received any feedback from the haulers? • Birchler Most of the feedback is they don t want any change • Gordon This is a very real issue If we cant make this work, if theylust totally obstruct us, and make it impossible for Council to agree than I think we have to agree that this is seriously broken The next best solution is distncting In that situation we have total control • Ohlson Council said we're not doing districting • Fischer Do we have the staff to monitor this? • Gordon If you ask us could we use more staff to really enforce this, yes Right now we respond on a complaint basis I think its sufficient Haulers are ready to fall in line once they see their competition falling in • Ohlson You've made a good faith effort I don't know that it will get us to where you want to go, but I believe you ve earned our support Linda Knowlton made the following motion Move that the Natural Resources Advisory Board support the Pay -As -You Throw ordinance amendment The motion was seconded by Nate Donovan and passed unanimously Susie Gordon said they would come back in six months and provide results Mid Point Storage Drainage Easement, Mark Sears Nate Donovan made the following motion Move that the Natural Resources Advisory board recommend approval of the permanent and temporary easement of the LLC drainage easement Natural Resources A0sory Board • November 5, 2003 Page 9 of 9 The motion was seconded by Clint Skutchan and was unanimously approved Review and Approval of Minutes The minutes of the October 1, 2003 NRAB meeting were unammously approved as written NRAB 2004 Work Plan The Natural Resources Advisory Board 2004 Work Plan was unanimously approved Adjourn The meeting was adjourned at 9 50 p m Submitted by Terry Klahn Admm Support Supervisor