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HomeMy WebLinkAboutGolf Board - Minutes - 02/19/2003City of Fort Collins Cultural, Library, and Recreational Services Golf Board Minutes: Regular Meeting of February 19, 2003 Council Liaison to the Board: Councilman Bill Bertschy present. Staff Support to the Board: Jerry P. Brown, Manager of Golf at 221-6350, and Stacy Kelley, Administrative Aide at 416-2265 Call Meeting to Order: Chairperson Bill Rutledge called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. Agenda Review: There were no changes to the printed agenda. Items of Note: ➢ Grant Sherwood called and was unable to attend the meeting. ➢ Brauns Bar and Grill at Collindale now has a temporary liquor license. The owners will meet with the Liquor Licensing Authority Monday, March 3 at 1 p.m. for final approval. The restaurant is scheduled to be open for full operation March 10 and their Grand Opening will be on March 29. ➢ The Grand Opening for the Collindale Clubhouse will be March 28 from 5:00 p.m. until 6 p.m., with a ribbon cutting at 5:30 p.m. ➢ Former Board Member Karen Joslin-Aured who has moved to Columbus, Ohio, wrote a letter to the Board thanking them and extending admiration for a great job on the new Collindale Clubhouse. ➢ Boards and Commission's Annual Reports and Work Plans are available to the public. Stacy will make copies if anyone would like one. ➢ Jerry reminded the Board that the election of the officers will be in March. Approval of Minutes: On a motion by Mike Sanders and seconded by Claire Nelms, the Board unanimously approved the Minutes of the January 15, 2003 Regular Meeting (8:0). Citizen Participation: No comment at this time. Review and Discussion of the 2003 Amended Work Plan: All Boards and Commissions within the City must have an Annual Work Plan. Jerry mentioned that historically yearly Work Plans have been approved by Council without any amendments. However, several 2003 Work Plans were amended this year and the Council amended the Golf Board Work Plan to include investigation of further options to extend golf opportunities for youth. Council Member Bill Bertschy explained to the Board the reason the Council amended the 2003 plan was because almost all of the 10-12 applicants that applied for a position on the Golf Board said they would like to see more opportunities for youth in our city golf programs. He also wanted to make it clear to the Board that he knows that the Golf Division already has many youth programs in place so maybe Golf Board Minutes February 19, 2003 making the citizens more aware of these programs would be what is necessary. The amendment was acceptable to the Board. Discussion: Structure of Golf Fees and Charges for 2004/2005: Bill Rutledge summarized the Board's last meeting. The main item discussed was the Structure of Golf Fees and Charges for 2004/2005 and if there should be changes to the current Annual Passes and Punch Cards. The Board reviews the Golf budget in 2-year increments. The city is very fortunate the Surcharge for rounds played goes directly into Capital Improvements to keep our golf courses at the high standards that they are now. With the economy down and drought conditions, the Board is very concerned about the economic future of the golf courses. He explained that the Board is compiling information about four different options for the 2004/2005 budgets as follows: 1) Total elimination of all Annual Passes (potentially substituting them with Punch Cards). 2) Elimination of all Unrestricted Annual Passes and allowing only the use of Restricted Annual Passes during Non -Prime Time. 3) Maintain the status quo and leave Annual Passes as they are today. 4) Expand the usage of Annual Passes to fully include SouthRidge. Bill made it clear to the citizens present that the Golf Board is an advisory board to the City Council, City Manager, and Golf Staff, and as citizen representatives we do not make decisions, only recommendations. The City Manager and City Council make the final decision about the budget. Jerry P. Brown manages the budget. He has to submit a recommended budget to the City Manager by June 1", and Council receives the City Manager's recommended budget by September V. A final budget must be adopted annually by Council no later than November 30' . The Board recognized that most of the citizens present were in attendance to voice their opinion about Annual Passes. Bill asked for citizens to stand and state their name for the record, and with that opened the floor for discussion. Rex Smith has lived in Fort Collins since 1980. He would like an explanation as to why memberships are being considered for elimination? Jerry mentioned that this has been a long process and that the Board started this process last spring, and since there have been six new members appointed to the Board in the last two years, it was time to take a periodic look at fees and passes again. Bill explained that the Board has not made any decision about eliminating Annual Passes but that we are gathering information from staff on several different options. Jerry provided a report to the Board about the options. The last time the Board recommended revisions to the Fee Structure was in 1998 with the recommendation that Annual Passes could be eliminated or restricted by 2003. Eliminating or restricting passes makes good business sense. Lauren DeRosa said the Board is only in the beginning stages of making this recommendation. If the newspaper gave the impression that the Board is definitely going to eliminate Annual passes it is incorrect. Rex asked if the Golf Fund is in trouble, and Jerry said no. Claire Nelms said it has to come down to money. Rex wanted his opinion noted that there would not be as many Annual Pass holders playing if they had to pay for green fees. He would like to see the Board research what happened in Lincoln Nebraska two years ago saying that when their city eliminated passes that revenues significantly decreased and low numbers of play resulted. Golf Board Minutes February 19, 2003 NOTE: Rex Smith wrote a letter (attached) to Jerry on February 20 to inform him that he was given incorrect information about Lincoln Nebraska. Lincoln did not eliminate golf passes at their courses. The decrease in play at their city courses was apparently the result of less than satisfactory maintenance of the courses, in the opinion of many of the local golfers, coupled with the fact that there are several privately -owned courses in the Lincoln area that are open to the public. He wanted to offer his sincere apology to Jerry and to the Members of the Golf Board for presenting incorrect information at the public meeting. Robert Turner is a senior golfer. He has been playing golf for about 10-12 years. He is happy about the way the fee structure is now. Whether summer or winter the Annual Pass holders play. With our current drought conditions he is really concerned about the golf courses. Watering is going to cost a lot of money and the Annual Pass holders bring in concrete revenue. He is upset about the goose droppings more than anything else. John Hess said he is part of a group of people that play almost every day. How many times do the Annual Pass holders keep others from playing? He only plays Monday -Friday. Larry Buckendorf asked John if the option of only allowing play during Non -Prime Time would work for him? John replied that he currently has a Restricted Pass. Jay Dempsey plays primarily at Collindale, and he would like the Board to think about the human factor rather than just money. Collindale is the "Cheers" version of a golf course. If the Board takes away Annual Passes there would be a risk of diminishing friendships. Annual Pass players are the ones who are playing when the weather isn't prime. He noted that he bought a ski pass and was only able to use it once, but that was ok to him and he didn't feel that the ski resort owed him anything for not being able to ski more than once. That is just the way it is when you buy passes. Jay made a reference to Vail. The pass holders are the ones that help keep the restaurants and pros in business during the off season and it is up to the Board to support the businesses that the City is partnering with. The Board should look at how to get more golfers to purchase passes rather than taking passes away from the 400+ loyal pass holders currently buying passes. He specifically made that point to Mike Sanders and Manny Jiminez. Mike mentioned that some Annual Pass holders abuse the privilege by letting others use their passes, and some play an excessive amount of rounds receiving more than a reasonable discount. Jay thinks the number of rounds played shouldn't matter because there are years that the rounds that a golfer might play are less. Claire asked Jay if he was only talking about Collindale and if he felt the same way about the other two courses. She stated that the Board needed to look at the fees at all of the courses. Jay said Collindale is his primary course. Jay is in support of keeping everything status quo. H.R Riley agrees 100%. Passes have been a confrontational issue since he's been here. So what if I play 10C rounds or more? If you take season passes away you are going to lose golfers and your golf courses will not have golfers during Non -Prime Times. Goose droppings are horrible. He said he read in the newspaper that the golf courses are cleaned three times a day; he was out playing the past few days and the droppings were never cleaned the whole time he was here. It is time that something is done about the droppings! Bill Daigneaves said he has wanted a golf pass for the past five years. In times where money is a concern, if people buy a pass you have the pot of money. Annual Passes are an Golf Board Minutes February 19, 2003 investment in Fort Collins so pass players play here. In reference to the decrease in the amount of passes sold last year he wanted to know if there was a decrease in the amount of green fees also. Jerry replied that the total rounds were down about 5,000 under average. He thinks the weather and the economy also played a role, and that there was a decrease in passes because they wanted to play other courses. Mike Ballard said because of financial reasons he has been unable to buy a pass in the previous years and is looking forward to purchasing a pass this year. Wants to play here only because of the pass. If you want to keep the players in Fort Collins allow pass holders to buy them. Lauren asked Mike if he would consider using a Punch Card as an option. Mike said no. Owen Vasby bought his pass in January and he encouraged keeping passes. Would suggest restricted passes. Rex Smith said CGA passbooks are available for $40 and have many coupons for different courses. If passes are eliminated you'll see more of this from other courses to lure golfers from Fort Collins. Don Cummins said Annual Passes are an asset to Fort Collins. If it were about money how many rounds would be available for green fee players? How many were pass players. From October — April pass players' money services the debt. Frequent users bring the money and they are important for the Pros and Restaurants. Steve Ivy has been a pass holder for five years. He is in business planning. It is not good business to get rid of your most frequent customers. He wanted to know why the Golf Division is only looking 2 years out. Budgets have to be looked at further into the future to have a good business portfolio. He evaluates his pass by average cost. The City needs to take a look at competition to see how to get more of the green fee players to purchase passes. By eliminating Annual Passes the courses will lose a lot of loyal users. The pass holders are the "core" of golf here. The City needs to advertise and find a way to get green fee players to buy passes. Jerry made a clarification that the City of Fort Collins has a 10- year projected budget and the Golf Fund does a five-year Financial Statement. What the Board is currently talking about is the specific expenditures, revenues, and fees for 2004/2005. Evie Bames has played for 30 years. She uses Punch Cards. Retired ladies should not be financially burdened. She wanted to know why there are a 100 new lockers downstairs and the youth golfer only pay $50 and seniors pay $200? She stated that she understands that many of the youth ride their bike and need a place for their things but this range of fees is too extreme. Collindale Golf Professional Jim Greer corrected Evie by telling her that there are only 50 lockers and the youth price is $125.00. He said though that she had a good point and he would look into re -pricing lockers for seniors. Bill Rutledge spoke to the remarks made by Mr. Turner and Mr. Riley about the geese. He stated that he is the greatest advocate for getting rid of the geese. He has written letters to the Mayor and to the Department of Interior in Washington D.C. There are legal restraints on the City Government. The geese in Fort Collins can now be harassed by using dogs. Golf Board Minutes February 19, 2003 The Board is very supportive of getting rid of the geese. Bill also said that he realizes that health reasons are why many golfers golf and sometimes it is the only avenue for enjoyment. Many seniors are on a fixed income and retirement drops their incomes 50%. The Board recognizes the hardships. He then clarified why the Surcharge is extremely important. Without the Surcharge the golfers wouldn't have several new facilities and updates. He wanted to make it very clear that the Board is considering all options at this time. Mindy Markley mentioned this is her 2"d round on the Golf Board. The Board's intent is not to be against anyone or any group. The Board's main intent is to make good decisions for the golfers and Golf Budget needs, and making sure there is golf tomorrow. Even though pass members are loyal, the Board needs to consider other people and other interest groups needs. There was a question from the floor about what was going to be done about the geese. Bill explained that there is a Federal proposal to limit the number of geese in an area, and they are developing plans to reduce geese in this area. There are permits available to spray the eggs. Geese are a major problem across the country. Bill gave a brief history about how goose breeding got started. With local and federal guidelines, options that were here in the past are no longer acceptable. We are working within the City. Jerry stated that last year City Council approved the use of dogs to haze geese on the courses from August 1" to April in. This year in particular the geese have just gotten here. Our population of geese is 55% too much. There was a question from the floor why only until April In and why can't you spray the eggs? Federal law prohibits dogs when geese are laying eggs or molting. There are City Codes and the Division of Wildlife has other guidelines which currently don't allow for spraying eggs on City of Fort Collins property. Jerry asked the Board if they wanted to eliminate any of the fees and charges options. Also, if there were any considerations for additions or other expectations. Bill wanted to know if Jerry would have the budget projection for next month. Jerry said he would try. David Johnson's personal opinion was to remove option four to include pass use fully at SouthRidge. Bill said if the fees were the same at SouthRidge as they are at Collindale and City Park Nine, the revenue would be negatively impacted. There was a question why SouthRidge was treated differently than the other courses. Jerry said historically because of the debt, but now it is more of a fairness, business, and financial reason. Last year SouthRidge had 50,000 rounds without passes played and achieved over $1 million in Revenues. There was a comment from the floor that you can't get on SouthRidge because of all of the leagues and tournaments. Jerry said it is possible to also add more tournaments and leagues to Collindale as well. Mike Sanders said that statistics show that a relatively small percentage of the revenue is derived from Annual Passes, but that 26,000 rounds are played by Annual Pass holders. He stated that the majority of the citizens on the floor are pass holders and there are several thousand golfers not present who pay green fees. Prepayment isn't needed as much today as in the past to keep the golf courses up and running. The Board is pleased that the golf revenue doesn't have to go into the City General Fund. Green Fees are on the low end of the scale for Northern Colorado and nation wide. Giving away our best times doesn't make sense. Golf Board Minutes February 19, 2003 Jay Dempsey wanted to know how Mike Sanders and Manny Jiminez were going to vote. Jerry explained that the Board is not planning to make a final decision at this meeting. They are still collecting data and information. At the April meeting they will have their final discussions and potentially vote then, but no later than May will they make their recommendations. Al Pettine said SouthRidge was not given to the golfers from the city and that the golfers paid for the land. Council Member Bill Bertschy stood up to correct this statement made by Mr. Pettine but Mr. Pettine told him to "shut -up and sit down". Mr. Pettine continued telling the Board that the yearly budget should decide what the fees should be. He said (former Mayor) Ann Azari promised the community value of golf. Mr. Pettine felt this was a he and now the golfers are paying for it. Bill Bertschy then explained what happened at SouthRidge. After the original financing debt was restructured, the City paid half and the golfers paid half of the new remaining debt. Don Braun said the City should applaud that the pass holders service the debt. Annual pass players were here the past couple of days when weather wasn't favorable, not the green fee players. Jerry said that the rounds are nearly full during Prime Time and less than 85% during Non -Prime Time as predicated on weather. Mike said there really is no way to know how many rounds we would fill if Annual Passes were eliminated. Bill Rutledge told the citizens that the Board needed to compile more data and have more discussions. That is where the Board stands as of now. It is premature to do a final vote without all of the facts. Mindy wanted to know what the timetable of the Board's decision. Jerry again noted that the May meeting is the latest to make their recommendations. Jerry informed the citizens that there were other similar comments that he received by phone, e- mails, and letters, and that he will attach them to the Minutes of this meeting. Mindy Markley then made a motion to eliminate option 4 (expand the usage of Annual Passes to fully include SouthRidge), seconded by Dave Johnson. The Board voted to approve the motion 7:1 with Claire Nelms opposing. Claire felt that SouthRidge is a City course and the same fees should be charged like the other courses. Other Business: ➢ Jerry noted the issue of treated water as a backup system to our ditch water, and that Council will be discussing water issues in the near future. ➢ Next month the Board will discuss a potential response to the Memorandum from the City Manager requesting the Board's input on the City 2004/2005 Budget preparation. Golf Board Minutes February 19, 2003 Adjournment: Mindy Markley made a motion to adjourn, seconded by Manny Jimenez. Unanimously passed at 8:51 p.m. Tour of Collindale Clubhouse: Several Board Members, Coucihnan Bertschy, and some citizens then took a tour of the New Collindale Clubhouse. Meeting Attendance Board Members Larry Buckendorf Lauren DeRosa Manny Jimenez Dave Johnson Mindy Markley Claire Nelms Bill Rutledge Mike Sanders Staff Doug Anderson Randy Bonneville Jerry P. Brown Rob Dahl Pat Finnegan Jim Greer Stacy Kelley Scott Manning Dale Smigelsky Respectfully submitted, Stacy Kelley Kell Administrative Aide Guests Mike Ballard Evie Barnes Bill Bertschy Donald Braun Barbara Comley Mike Cova Don Cummins Byrd C. Curtis Bill Daigneaves Trent Delinger Jay Dempsey Skip Force Larry Glitz Doug Grant Jean Haggard Shirley Hansen John Hess Keith Holcomb Steve Ivy Leanie Jordan Ed Keifer Trevor Merser Guests cont. Gary R. Miles Frank Montoya Edith Moore Robert Moore Sr. Bill Mout Orvits O. Charlie Ogren AlPettine John Paugh H.R. Riley Dan Shald Doug Sjogrem Joyce Sjogrem Rex Smith Jerry Stahmer Art Swanstrom Travis Tucci Robert Turner Owen Vasby Scott Winkle Dale Wolaver Peggy Wolaver Note: Additional citizens were in attendance but did not sign our attendance sheet. Attachments Feb 20 03 05:07p G. Rex Smith 970-493-6595 p.1 February 20, 2003 Fax to: Jerry Brown Director of Golf City of Fort Collins Fax No: 221-6586 Jerry - This is written confirmation of the phone conversation we had earlier today regarding the incorrect information that I told the Golf Board last evening. As discussed, contrary to what I had been told last fall, the City of Lincoln did not eliminate golf passes at the City courses. The decrease in play at the city courses was apparently the result of less than satisfactory maintenance of the courses, in the opinion of many of the golfers, coupled with the fact that there are several privately -owned courses in the Lincoln area that are open to the public. I would like to offer my sincere apology to both you and to the members of the Golf Board for presenting incorrect information at the public meeting, and would request that, if at all possible, this incorrect information either be removed from the minutes of the meeting, or that some kind of footnote, etc., be added to the minutes to indicate that the information I presented regarding annual passes being eliminated at the Lincoln courses was incorrect. Thanks for your help and understanding. Q--Y- G. Rex Smith Cultui , Library, and Recreational Servic, Golf Division City of Fort Collins SUMMARY of COMMENTS I have received comments from golfers about the Fees and Charges issue, especially with regards to Annual Passes. I told each of these people that I would summarize their comments and provide them to the Golf Board. Below is a summary of these comments: - Marla Nelson called and said Claire Nelms contacted her. Marla believes that we would eliminate many, many golfers if we eliminated Annual Passes. She says passes make golf affordable for many people in Fort Collins. - Scott Winkle called and he questions the 22,000 golfers noted in the newspaper as many of those golfers golf at the country club or elsewhere, so 22,000 is not accurate. He said avid golfers would go elsewhere to golf without passes. He said he spends probably $50 each time he plays because he rents a cart, uses range balls, buys some food/beverage, etc., so he said we would be loosing even more money if we eliminated passes. He said don't take away something that we already have. - David Mitchell called and is upset about the negative feeling toward annual pass cardholders. He said golf is a recreation/community service, and that without passes, many folks would not be able to golf very much as they are being priced out of everything. He feels that the existing 10-Play Punch Card rates are also unfair as he computed that someone who buys a 9-Hole Card for $125 is actually paying $1.39 per hole to golf, whereas a person who pays an 18-Hole Green Fee is only paying $1.22 per hole to play. This is unfair. - Will Stutheit called and said he is a senior citizen and he feels that we are not giving proper consideration to the cash flow issue. He said we can collect a guaranteed $125,000 at the beginning of each year no matter how bad the weather is, and that cash is very important. He is not in favor of Punch Cards as a replacement for Annual Passes, and he does not think we should eliminate all passes, but it would be OK if we just kept Non -Prime Time Annual Passes only, or maintained the status quo, or expanded to include SouthRidge. He also doesn't understand why we charge the same fees at City Park Nine as it is not a full golf course like Collindale or SouthRidge. - Charlie Hoffman called and said the Annual Pass is a good deal for both the golfer and the City as the City gets the cash (flow) up front even if the weather is bad. He said to remember 1979/1980 when we didn't play for 5 months and the City still got its money. He said that most of us (seniors) don't play on the weekend so he would accept the Non -Prime Time Annual Pass option, but he feels that we should include Annual Passes to SouthRidge under the same conditions as at Collindale. We should change SouthRidge to expand Non - Prime Time. Also, get rid of Canada Geese. - Ory Riddle called and said seniors have more time than money and if we fully eliminated all Annual Passes that they would play only once or twice a week instead of four or five times a week. Also he said the City gets a sizeable chunk of money each March when they purchase their passes which would be lost. He could support Non -Prime Time passes only. Attached are several a -mails and one letter that I received, as well. 02.19.03 City Park Nine Golf Course • 411 South Bryan Avenue • Fort Collins, CO 80521 • (970) 221-6650 Collindale Golf Course • 1441 East Horsetooth Road • Fort Collins, CO80525 • (970)221-6651 SouthRidge Golf Course • 5750 South Lemay Avenue • Fort Collins, CO 80525 • (970) 226-2828 Golf Administration • 215North Mason Street, 3rdFloor • PO.Box580 • Fort Collins, CO80522-0580 • (970)221- 350 • FAX (970) 221-6586 Jerry Brown - Re: Annual passes at Collindale Page 11 From: Jerry Brown To: "rtward@lamar.colostate.edu".GWIA60.FC1 Date: 2/18/03 2:15PM Subject: Re: Annual passes at Collindale Richard & Louis - I will make copies of your message and see that each Golf Board Member gets a copy before the meeting tomorrow night. Thank you for your input. - Jerry P. Brown, Manager of Golf >>> richard ward <rtward@lamar.colostate.edu> 02/18/03 01:OOPM >>> To: Members of the Golf Board From: Richard Ward and Louis Scharf We support keeping Annual Passes at Collindale as an option, especially those with the restriction to play Monday thru Friday noon. Those who play on weekends can better argue their case. Our reasons are economic as well as convenience. The fees coming from weekday pass players are in large part additive and not replacive. That is, Non -pass players are not being preempted from tee times by Pass players; Non -pass players can play when they wish on weekdays. Income from the Non -pass players, therefore, could not be expected to increase as a result of elimination of the Weekday Passes. From the Weekday Pass holder, it should not be assumed that elimination of their Pass option would result in their laying out more money to play Collindale than they presently do. It could well be less! The options for play elsewhere are increasing and would be taken more often. The 440 current Pass holders still provide a significant commitment of funds to the budget. Conservatively, it must be at least $225,000. Season passes are offered for a variety of recreational activities for good economic reasons. We hope that you will see that the pros for keeping Passes outweigh the cons. Thanks! Jerry Brown - Re: Annual Pass Page 1 From: Jerry Brown To: "iverlm@msn.com".GWIA60.FC1 Date: 2/19/03 10:51AM Subject: Re: Annual Pass Dear Loren - I will make copies of your message and see that each Golf Board Member gets a copy. Thank you for your input. - Jerry P. Brown, Manager of Golf >>> <Ivedm@msn.com> 02/19/03 10:51AM >>> Golf Board Members, I wasnYt able to attend the meeting last night, but would like to express my opinions regarding possible changes to the annual pass. My preference would be to keep it the same; offer both a restricted and unrestriced reasonably priced annual pass. Fully including South Ridge (i.e., same cost per round) would be nice but IVm OK as is. Offeding only the restricted annual pass would be my second choice. I would hate to see the annual pass eliminated entirely. ThereVs a couple of things I think should be considered in this decision. First, I would think a fair number of annual pass holders are retired people who generally golf during low use times anyway. Second, and maybe more important, I think annual pass holders bring in extra golfers to play with them. I was always trying to get co-workers to go out with me and IVm sure I brought in over 40 extra rounds last year. I even got a couple of people started in golf who had not played before. Thanks for listening, Loren Iverson February 19, 2003 To: The Golf Advisory Board: The continuation of the current system of the annual passes is very important to many of the older golfers. Most of the older golfers are on fixed incomes and costs of most everything are rising steadily (gas, water, food). If you do away with particularly the restricted passes, you will be taking away an important acitivity of many older retired golfers. The City has I think the oldsters after all, this is a do not come into eff It takes many rounds the daily green fee. special programs for kids and many other groups. are entitled to some special consideration - City service. Also, the reduced costs of play act until many rounds of golf have been played. before the average cost per round falls below Sincerely, //01 � tymond L. Anderson