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HomeMy WebLinkAboutGolf Board - Minutes - 05/21/2003City of Fort Collins Cultural, Library, and Recreational Services Golf Board Minutes: Regular Meeting of May 21, 2003 Council Liaison to the Board: Councilman Bill Bertschy (Present) Staff Support to the Board: Jerry P. Brown, Manager of Golf at 221-6350, and Stacy Kelley, Administrative Aide at 416-2265 Call Meeting to Order: Chairperson Dave Johnson called the meeting to order at 7:33p.m. Agenda Review: No changes to the printed agenda. Items of Note: No items of note. Approval of Minutes: On a motion by Claire Nelms and seconded by Grant Sherwood the Board voted unanimously (8:0) to approve the Minutes of the April 16, 2003 Regular Meeting. Citizen Participation: No citizen participation at this time. Discussion and the Golf Board's Final Recommendation to the City Manager of the Golf Fees and Charges for 2004. Chairperson Dave Johnson told the citizens that tonight the Board will be discussing and making a Final Recommendation to the City Manager about 2004 Golf Fees and Charges. He said that any citizen who wanted to make comments or give their opinions would have 2 minutes to speak. He thanked all the citizens who wrote letters, e-mails, and comments to the Board on their Preliminary Recommendation to eliminate Annual Passes. Jerry reminded the Board and the citizens that the Final Recommendation will be presented to the City Manager and he will make the final decision. It is not the responsibility of City Council to make decisions about Golf Fees and Charges. He mentioned that the Board Members have received all of the citizen's comments. The Board voted 6-2 as their Preliminary Recommendation at their April 16`h meeting to eliminate passes, and the Board needs to vote on a Final Recommendation this evening. Jerry said he wasn't sure when the City Manager would make a decision. Jerry told the Board that since the last meeting there were two alternative proposals submitted to him by Board Members Mike Sanders and Dave Johnson. Both submitted written proposals and were previously sent to Board Members for review. Generally, Mike Sanders suggested that a 20 percent discount off of Prime Time Daily Green Fee Rates for 10-Play Punch Cards is too high, and he suggested that a 5 percent to 10 percent discount is more realistic. Dave Johnson has told you he has changed his mind from his March 26 vote, and generally he now suggests elimination of Unrestricted Annual Passes, but keeping Restricted Annual Passes to be used in Non -Prime Times only; and raising the rates on Golf Board Minutes 5/21/03 Restricted Annual Passes by $100.00 for Adults and by $50.00 for Seniors Age 75+ and Juniors Age 17-. Dave then pointed out to the citizens and Board the policy of Citizen Participation. He asked that there be no applause, booing, or interrupting during the Board Meeting. He also mentioned that citizens not make repeated comments and he asked that each individual state their name for the record. John Gaussman discussed with the Board a news article that he had previously given to them. The PGA states that the avid and core golfer plays over 24 rounds of golf a year and the casual golfer under 24 rounds per year. It states that the avid golfer is the group that is playing on courses today. In John's opinion the preliminary recommendation that the Board is suggesting is targeted towards the avid and core golfers. There is a decline in golf play across the country and the PGA thinks that the avid golfer is the golfer that courses needs to appeal to. John feels that doesn't apply here as he feels that eliminating Annual Passes would penalize the avid and core golfers that are playing on the courses today. It seems to him that with the decline of golfers that in future years Fort Collins might not have the surplus of avid and core golfers to bring in the revenue. Dwain Bloyer said City Government offers a nice benefit to the Annual Pass holders that are offered to all people not just a specific group and it is well appreciated. He understands that governments must make decisions when they are in a financial pinch. But he doesn't understand why the Board is suggesting to eliminate passes when the Golf Fund could lose $108,000 next year from pass holders and that money would need to be taken out of reserves to bring in 100% revenue for the year. He feels the Board is making a decision based on the exception golfer not the average golfer. He said tomorrow the Golf Fund win receive $6.00 in revenue from him when he plays in the morning and nothing more because you already have my pass fees. He doesn't think it will cost $15.00 per round but only 20 cents and a divot or two because the revenue that he already paid for a pass fixes the round played. Hal Boyne moved to Fort Collins in 1979. Fort Collins provides discounts for all recreational activities for Seniors and he feels that the decision to eliminate Annual Passes is not in the spirit that Fort Collins provides for the Senior population. He would like to see some modifications to the preliminary recommendation. He said he doesn't play during weekends. He thinks that if passes are eliminated Seniors who play regularly won't be able to afford the game like they do now and to be a good golfer they have to play regularly. Mike Turnbull mentioned that this proposal is for one year. Jay Dempsey asked the Board if they made any consideration about the success of the restaurant businesses or the success of the Pro shops? Dave Johnson said he is worried about the success of the pros and restaurants. Jay said that the courses have already seen a down turn of golfers in tournaments because they can't use their passes. Jay said he knows a lot of pass holders are playing their rounds during drizzly weather and if passes are eliminated there won't be anyone on the courses those days. He said that the courses will only be seasonal and not year round. The restaurants during October to April will have flat beer and stale crackers. Jay told the Board that we are in an economic downturn and now is not the time to get rid of proven revenue. He hasn't' seen or heard from anyone in the Golf Board Minutes 5/21/03 public that have said they think the Annual Pass holders are getting a great deal but the Board has seen tons of Annual Pass holders come and talk to you every chance they get. He feels that the Board needs to listen to the public and do the right thing and keep Annual Passes status quo. Kevin Schneider said his 14 year old loves to play golf and so do a lot of his friends. They use the passes so they can practice their game to be competitive at the Junior High and High School levels. Frank Blanco said he is really at a loss. He said the Board Members think that they know what is best for the citizens of Fort Collins when in fact they aren't listening to the people they represent. He said the Golf Fund isn't in financial trouble so if it is not broken don't fix it. He asked the Board why they were messing with fees and charges? Just for something to do? Les Longrpe asked Mike Sanders how many rounds he played on the Fort Collins City Courses last year? Byrd Curtis said Mike is just listening. Dave informed the audience that the Board Members do not have to respond to direct questions. Mike said he probably played 23 to 24 rounds. Dave asked if there was anyone else who would like to make a comment? There was not. Grant Sherwood asked Jerry to explain the loss of $108,000 the first year. Jerry explained that the Board received his memo in January that said it is possible, based upon the experience of other municipal courses that have eliminated Annual Passes, that we could lose $108,000 of revenue the first year. We don't really know what the figure is for sure. Jerry researched other courses and by using the number of rounds at our courses that is an estimate of what he came up with. Grant asked if Jerry thought that there would be a loss because not enough of the Annual Pass players or others would pay Green Fees? Jerry said that was correct. Jerry said the Golf Fund made $277,000 from Annual Passes in 2002 however, $2.35 million was totally generated. There were 442 pass holders that played around 26,000 rounds of golf. He projected about approximately how many Annual Pass rounds lost need to be replaced with Green Fee Players. If we achieved 19,000 rounds with Green Fees we would be at 100%. Jerry doesn't think that would happen the first year because of the potential animosity by the Annual Pass holders. If we got about 112 of the rounds back we would have a shortfall of about $108,000. Lauren DeRosa wanted to speak to the question that Jay Dempsey had of whether or not the Board Members have thought about the affects on Pros and restaurants by eliminating passes. She is personally very concerned about the businesses and the golfers as a whole not just 442 people. She also believes that Brauns Bar and Grill should be able to provide services to the non -golfers as well. Lauren said she is also very concerned from reading letters sent to City Manager John Fischbach that the Golf Board Members don't golf, as last year she played around 35 rounds of golf. She also said that the Members spend a lot of time each month volunteering on the Board and it would be an incorrect assumption that the Golf Board isn't concerned about the welfare of City of Fort Collins golfers. Dave said he would like to discuss his recommendation of eliminating passes during the weekends but allowing them during the week and raising the fees. He has been talking to Golf Board Minutes 5/21/03 the Pros and being a former Pro, he feels there should at least be Restricted passes. He said he grew up here and used passes as a Junior golfer. He thinks the economy is not great at this time and Fort Collins doesn't have an abundance of golfers. This might not be a smart time to eliminate passes. Jerry said the motion on the table is to eliminate passes and the Board needs to vote or put a different motion on the table. Grant asked Jerry if there weren't passes would there even be any discussion about them and what is the motivation of having passes? Lauren replied that the Board would not be discussing passes but that there would be discussion to create a fair discount for the Juniors and Seniors. Mindy Markley agrees there should be those discounts but something to measure. She said she has been on the Board many years and in her first term she felt intimidated by other golfers but she is very concerned for the public needs and is not against having discounts but financially they need to be fair and measurable. Lauren said she doesn't understand why if the average Annual Pass cardholder is already paying $11.00 per round, why then won't those Annual Pass holders buy punchcards which are a similar discount if they are only playing 50 rounds or less a year? She said if she let people come in to her liquor store with $100.00 and was giving them an unlimited amount of drinks, sure she would have more people but she would be losing money. If she offers a limited discount she might lose some customers but will make money. Dwain Bloyer said if the weather is windy, raining, or snowing he won't pay the $11.00. But with his Annual Pass he is out on the golf courses in February and March when the weather is unpredictable. Claire Nelms said the trouble with punchcards is that the ladies who play in leagues don't go in 10s so if you don't play after the leagues or other times people will lose money. The Women's League golfers won't buy punchcards. She said the economy is not good and we will lose golfers. Grant said this is an enterprise business and should be run as such. Bill Rutledge said CSU did away with prime location season tickets unless you donated to the boosters. Before they changed their policy, they sold many season tickets and the stadium and Moby Arena were full and you had to go early to get in. Since then their ticket sales have gone down hill. The downfall wasn't because of the quality of play, it has to do with alienating season ticket holders. Don't alienate those with Annual Passes the same way. Mindy said CSU could measure how many events people went to because there are only a certain number during a season. Bill said if people don't buy tickets because they feel alienated, then they're out a lot of money. There was a question from the audience what kind of financial crisis are we in? Dave said right now the Golf Fund has a $5 million dollar debt. He said the Board is trying to make a financial decision. Lauren said the decision is also about equity of all golfers. There are about 20,000 golfers in the area and she is thinking about them not just 442. She understands how passionate the Seniors are. There was a question from the audience if the Board has considered how much money the Golf fund would lose if 1/3 of the golfers didn't play anymore. Jerry replied that the Board has gotten all the financial information and statistics to make their decision. Mike said about 3% of the golfer population are Annual Pass holders and they only bring in 11% of the gross revenue and play over 20% of the rounds. There was a question from the audience what the Surcharge has been spent on? The City has gone into debt for about $2.5 million two times for major projects. The first was for the irrigation system and secondly for the new facility at Collindale. There was a comment from the audience that too much was spent on this facility. Dave said the public comment session was over and the Board Golf Board Minutes 5/21/03 Members were talking amongst themselves. The gentleman angrily said "this is only the beginning". Dave told the audience that if the Board kept getting more outbursts from them they would ask the citizens to leave the room and the Board would discuss the topic by themselves. Mike then suggested that the Board listens to more public input and Larry Buckendorf agreed that the Board should hear everyone's comments. The Board agreed. Jay Dempsey said there are 500 employees being laid off at Agilant. These are poor economic times and now the Golf Board has the power to take away a service from its best customer. He urges the Board not to treat customers poorly as it is a huge mistake. Pam Gausman said that the Ski industry has passes that skiers can use whenever they want. They must have an accounting system that is tracking whether or not they are losing money. John Gausman said the Golf Fund receives $277,000 from Annual Pass holders and how can the Board not quantify that lump sum of money? He thinks that the lump sum that the Annual Pass holders spend is a proof positive way to make sure there is revenue for repairs. Gordon Gartner thinks that braking faith with loyal pass holders would be detrimental. He said he plays a lot and never plays when the courses are crowded. He spends about $700.00 a year and $400 of that is in a lump sum. If the passes were eliminated, that is revenue that the courses wouldn't be getting. He told Lauren that she is comparing a recreational service with a business and that cant be done. He said the courses are not full all the time so the Board should be trying to find ways to get more golfers out there not less by eliminating passes. He thanked the Board for letting him speak. Don Braun suggested that the city look at putting bar codes on the passes to keep track of the number of times Annual Pass holders play. He said if he was a Board Member he would not want to be part of a legacy that took away opportunities for our Juniors and Seniors in our community. He doesn't understand why the Board would want to penalize those loyal to Fort Collins Golf Courses. Dave asked if anyone else in the audience had comments. There were none. Dave again closed the public comments so that the Board could continue discussions. Lauren asked Dave how he came up with raising the fees $100.00? Dave said there was no specific reason and that he just wanted to bring the fees up to a fair and equitable amount. He understands what the golfers are saying and strongly feels that Restricted Passes should still be allowed. Claire said she liked Dave's proposal but didn't like the increase of fees. She doesn't understand why Boards in general think they need to raise fees and charges. Larry Buckendorf then made a motion to approve eliminating Annual Passes exactly as per their Preliminary Recommendation, without any amendments. Mike Sanders seconded the motion. Mike is in favor of continuing to give seniors a Green Fee discount of approximately 23% and approximately a 36% discount for juniors. He commented about the statement "if it's not broke don't fix it", he said for the past 27 years the City has delivered golf to it's citizens with making no provisions for capital items. The Golf Fund is in debt $5 million dollars and in debt $3 million more in interest. He feels that if money isn't put away soon for future capital improvements that we are penalizing the juniors in the future. He believes a fixed discount is fair and equitable. He realizes that it might have a Golf Board Minutes 5/21/03 negative impact on some people but he thinks we need to be responsible about the future and the fees and charges need to be fair and equitable. Bill said that the discussion of building the new Collindale Clubhouse was done 2 years ago and with the Surcharge this building would be paid for. He said it is no different than taking out a mortgage on a house. He sees no correlation between the debt and Annual Passes. The fee structure was the same 2 years ago when the decision was made to build the clubhouse. He said the Golf Fund has already proven that it pays the debt by the Surcharge that is charged. He does not see that we are in an economic dilemma that warrants eliminating Annual Passes. Dave said that 3% of the golfers are Annual Pass holders and they play 22% of the rounds. He thinks they are the core golfers. He feels strongly that we should keep those golfers out here during the off-season. Larry said that they would still allow a discount by using punchcards. Claire said people would have to buy too many to play their summer season and that wasn't fair. She asked to hear Larry's motion again. Larry restated his motion. Claire then asked Larry why we weren't listening to the people who have come to the last three meetings. She said there have been only two letters in support of eliminating passes. She said that the Board is not listening to the people we represent. Lauren said she played golf with a friend over the weekend. Her friend asked her if Annual Passes were really affecting the bottom line? Her friend wasn't a pass holder and had no financial stake in this question. She is concerned with the economic downturn and is struggling with her decision to eliminate passes at this time. She agrees with many points of the proposal but is wondering if they should eliminate passes completely. She thinks pass holders should pay more per round. Larry asked her to look at the proposal from the standpoint that Annual Pass holders are only 3% of the golfers. He has had personal discussions with all of the Professionals and has come to the conclusion that eliminating passes would not be a significant impact on the pro shops or concessionaires. Mike said that we pay the Professionals. He doesn't know exactly how many golfers we would lose the first year but he thinks for sure that those golfers will play the courses again. Larry said this is a one-year decision and the Board could re -consider the long-term impacts of eliminating passes. Larry said there has been some very good points made by the citizens but there has also been some points that are completely off base especially when Board members receive harassing phone calls which he personally has received. A comment was made from Les Longpre that Larry didn't know for sure that someone in this audience made those phone calls. Larry said his point was that everyone's comments are taken into consideration. Larry has recently played at SouthRidge and Collindale and has talked to Annual Pass holders and non -Annual Pass holders. He said the reason there aren't any comments supporting the recommendation is because you most commonly only get opposition when there is a change. Claire asked if the non -Annual Pass holders feel like the pass holders are taking money from them why aren't they in the audience? Mike replied that if the Board was considering raising Green Fees they would be here in opposition. If there were going to be a financial impact to those people they would be here as well. He said Fort Collins has some of the lowest fees in Northern Colorado and anytime fee increases are discussed there is opposition. He said we are offering a great deal with a discount of 20% off. Golf Board Minutes 5/21/03 Bill said that we are looking at this motion objectively instead of subjectively and it is not worth losing $108,000. He said he learned a long time ago in finance that a Chief Executive or an Executive Board cannot be ruled by its' account. He said the accountant always wants to tell the Manager exactly what to do but the Manager has to consider in addition to the financial spreadsheet that he receives his customers, product, demand and other variables and make a decision. He feels this Board has many executives that are excellent with finances but we are taking the heart out of this issue. Dave agreed. He said he doesn't think that those pass holders who won't play because of elimination will necessarily come back to play during the Non -Prime Times. He would like the Board to consider his proposal to keep passes during Non -Prime Times and eliminate them Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. He said the Board should look at voting on a proposal that makes money not lose money. He feels that eliminating passes to Juniors would be detrimental and the rounds that they play wouldn't be filled by non -pass holders. Mike replied that there are only 67 Juniors that would be affected. He said if Fort Collins has about 500 kids that play golf some of those Juniors might use some open tee times that wouldn't have been available because of pass holders. Larry said if you give Juniors a Restricted pass Monday -Thursday we are only benefiting those Juniors in the summer. Dave said if the economy takes a downturn in the next couple of years, we will be looking for golfers during the Non -Prime Times. Mike said if the economy does take a down turn more people will not be taking vacations and leaving town but staying close to home and looking for activities locally. Dave said we need to talk about people not money. Mike said we are talking about 3% of the golfers in our community. Larry said that the pass holders have legitimate comments and financial interests and he respects that but his position is that we look globally on behalf of all the golfers in the City of Fort Collins. He said we need to look at this decision as if it is going to ultimately improve Fort Collins golf. If revenues increase then maybe we can look at other alternatives like eliminating the Surcharge. Bill said he doesn't think the Surcharge should be eliminated because it was designed as an enterprise source so that the revenues that it generates won't go into the General Fund and it was designed to go into Capital Projects. Larry said his point is if they could bring in more revenue, it is a possibility that when the debt for Collindale is paid in 20 years the Surcharge could be eliminated. Bill said there will always be a Capital improvement project that the Surcharge will have to pay for. Larry said we would not have to use a Surcharge if there are enough reserves. Bill said he considers $108,000 a loss. Mike suggested ending the discussion and voting. Larry agreed. The motion was approved 5:3 (with Manny Jimenez absent). Dave Johnson said he voted against the motion because it is against the core group of golfers. He thinks that it doesn't make sense to eliminate Non - Prime Time pass holders. Bill Rutledge voted against the motion because there is no point to put the Golf Fund in a $100,000+ deficit in budgeting. The Board is failing to consider the good will of the public. Claire Nelms voted against the proposal because she feels we are letting people down and she thinks it is a shame to put us in debt. Mike Sanders requested that staff and the City Manager look at the 20 percent discount on punchcards as being too much and also re -visit the transferability and card expiration issues. Golf Board Minutes 5/21/03 Land Purchase Proposal at City Park Nine From Thomas C. Lloyd Jerry explained the land purchase proposal for City Park Nine. In his opinion he doesn't think there is a problem with the proposal. Mike Sanders made a motion to proceed unless there are changes to be brought up to the Board again. Claire Nelms seconded. The motion was approved unanimously 8:0 (with Manny Jiminez absent). Other Business Jerry voiced his opinion that Collindale is not a good meeting room. He asked the Board's permission to look for another meeting room, possibly the City Park Nine room. Board Members unanimously concurred. Adjournment: Mindy Markley made a motion to adjourn at 9:55 p.m., seconded by Lauren DeRosa. Motion passed unanimously (8:0). Meeting Attendance Board Members Larry Buckendorf Lauren DeRosa Dave Johnson Mindy Markley Claire Nelms Bill Rutledge Grant Sherwood Mike Sanders Respectfully submitted, Stacy Kelley Administrative Aide Staff Guests Jerry P. Brown Tony Aberle Jim Greer Bill Bertschy Stacy Kelley Frank Blanco Dale Smigelsky Dwain Bloyer Hal Boyne Don Braun Neal Carson Byrd Curtis Jay Dempsey Sean Duff Ed Faillace Gordan G. Gartner Paul Gilbert Doug Grant John Guasman Pam Gausman Shirley Hansen John H. Hess Shane Houska Glen Joachims Les Longpre Dave Marshall Bob Moore Sr. Guests Cont. Edith C. Moore Mike Perry Buford Plemmons Eldon Reutter Gm Riddle Thomas F. Salt Kevin Schneider Wayne Thom Mike Turnbull Adelyn Wilkerson David Wilkerson Doug Wyfells Steve Zamsow Scott Winkle Dale Wolaver Peggy Wolaver Doug Wyfells Steve Zamsow Note: Some of the citizens in the audience did not sign our attendance sheet.